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The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus.
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Tram
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:13 pm    Post subject: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
neena wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
SamboSamba22 wrote:
Make note that the speedometer is only so accurate. When my clock says 60mph, my gps states 56/57mph. As I increase the speed the larger the speed gap becomes. 65 equals about 60/61mph.
I can run my Westfalia at 70 (65mph) but it seems like it’d rather stay around 60. That’s all at an average of 260 ft, relatively flat.

Good point, speedometer error could play a part in this as well. A phone would confirm that, or the oldschool method with mile markers and a stopwatch still works too.


It has been confirmed with GPS on iPhone. Our bus runs out of steam at 55 and that doesn't seem right which is why I asked the question. Back to the drawing board!

Perhaps start a thread so we can all see what you have and maybe spot what's wrong. Post pics of your engine, part numbers of the carb and distributor, compression test results, etc... Unless it's super worn out there's no reason you can't hit 65.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

OK, so let's do this. This is D/A/N and neena's 1970 Riviera that was supposed to be their summer vacation that never happened due to one parts issue after another and me farming out some work that I should have done myself and regret not doing so but we were all trying to make this HAPPEN... and, well, yeah. Rolling Eyes

So, the Bus, like the cat, came back the very next day with an oil leak, clunk in- out at the main pulley, and a host of other little things.

Reader's Digest version- I went to my private stash of engine stuff and pulled out a vintage late 1980s or early '90s factory exchange AS41 that I pulled apart to find it was a rebuilt engine that looked like it was hardly even run, with yellow and red paint stamps and NOS goodness throughout. Even the Ps and Cs were German with 343 part numbers... the best. Shocked

I miked and balanced everything and set deck height all even. Since it was a dual port and our Bus is a single, I switched studs and used the newly rebuilt 311 heads from the original engine. This engine is a 10mm stud engine WITH case savers. Nobody skimped on this one!

D/A/N and neena supplied a correct stock vacuum distributor rebuilt by one of the best, and I overhauled a West German stock 30PICT-3 with an NOS Bosch carb kit- the one that had ALL the parts, not just the gaskets.

New engine starts on a dime, idles smooth, even cool pulses out the TP, dwell at 47, timing at 0, hot idle at 850, carb idle mix right at 13 on the sniffer. It accelerates right NOW from 850 to 3000, and timing advance stops dead at 30. No protestation, no shakes, no rattles, vibration, or hesitation. Even after a run up a hill the engine is cool, as well as a full throttle highway run.

Original air cleaner with cable to the thermostat/ fan flaps is in place with function verified. The correct two piece throttle positioner is in place and functioning too.

The problem is that this damn Bus tops out at 55. With the original distributor it's tough getting there, too. I had a friend/ VW guy made me promise to try one of my Type 3 distributors with both vac and mechanical advances. It really woke the engine up and I was stoked, but all I really gained was getting to 55 faster. Rolling Eyes At 55, the engine is roaring at 3/4 throttle. I give it more throttle and it just roars louder- not really faster, but louder. I can back way off to about 1/2 throttle before it slows down.

And yes, a weight on the pedal up front opens the throttle all the way at the carb.

Way back when we were first building this thing the plan was that D&n were going to use their big motor in it, so when I had a chance to pick up a new 3 rib trans that had a Super Diff in it on the cheaper side, we jumped.

I was told by the supplier that the trans had stock gearing, however I found out later that D&n were told by the supplier that they "weren't sure" what was in it, but it "should" be fine.

Since it's two engines, two carbs, three distributors (that I can remember) that have topped out at 55 now am I bat shit crazy in suspecting the trans? I Googled Super Diffs and damned if what we have doesn't look exactly like this:

http://www.pacificcustoms.com/tran-002-supro.html

If we did get a sandrail trans... would that cause this issue? Is there a type of super diff that can cause this issue with stock gearing?

I'm a neophyte with all this aftermarket mod shit (aside from knowing all of it causes problems, LOL) so educate me.

I wound up having my compression gauge blow apart so I'm waiting for SnapOn to come by, but when I checked it fresh it was 135, 133, 135, 132.- and it ran just like this then, too.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Any wise words?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

If you are leaning toward it being a trans issue:
-get the serial number off the trans, and if you can contact the rebuilder, perhaps they will have the specs of what's inside.
-count the ring gear teeth through the drain plug hole (i think you should be able to see the ring gear, i know you can on type 1 tunnel transmissions). If it's some strange non-stock number, perhaps there's an unsuitable-for-street ratio r&p in it. Maybe you'd even be able to see the r&p ratio markings etched on the side of the ring gear. (this job sucks, just an fyi).

Food for thought: i had a 1600 in a splitcase trans equipped bus. Was a rocket ship until about 60mph. After that there just wasn't anything left. The r&p ratio was inadequate for the power being put through it. Engine had plenty more to give, but the trans was the restricting factor.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

hazetguy wrote:
If you are leaning toward it being a trans issue:
-get the serial number off the trans, and if you can contact the rebuilder, perhaps they will have the specs of what's inside.
-count the ring gear teeth through the drain plug hole (i think you should be able to see the ring gear, i know you can on type 1 tunnel transmissions). If it's some strange non-stock number, perhaps there's an unsuitable-for-street ratio r&p in it. Maybe you'd even be able to see the r&p ratio markings etched on the side of the ring gear. (this job sucks, just an fyi).

Food for thought: i had a 1600 in a splitcase trans equipped bus. Was a rocket ship until about 60mph. After that there just wasn't anything left. The r&p ratio was inadequate for the power being put through it. Engine had plenty more to give, but the trans was the restricting factor.


No clue who the rebuilder actually is. I've actually picked up a known good stock trans out of a '71 that I've spent some time degreasing. I just found the reseal kit for it that FedEx dropped off at the SIDE door for some reason sometime earlier today. I'm already prepped and ready to make the swap, but I just thought I'd pick some brains here in case I'm missing something. I really don't want to go through all this to have the same issue is all.

What you describe is exactly what this feels like... almost as if there's a governor on the damn thing. Evil or Very Mad

I may try counting gears on the R&P if I can see it but I have no idea what that info would mean. Whatta dumbass, eh? Hell, the one school I never did was transmissions- why when you just ordered a factory exchange?

As to the job sucking... this whole thing has been sucking for months, so what's a little more suckage? I've never had a more frustrating project. Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

Damn these multiple usernames with the same bus, I was hoping the fix was going to be as simple as ditching a few Chinese parts and chrome stuff and educating the adjuster on how to set it up right. Apparently that's already been well covered, bummer.

A temporary tach will tell us if the trans ratio is too low, but you might have already heard it over revving so I'm not so sure that's the issue.
Since everything seems to be correct and dialed in what's left?, small valves?, wrong rockers?, restrictive (defective) muffler?, some F-up with cam grind or gear hole location back when it was rebuilt long ago?
If it's topping out but still has pedal left there must be some sort of restriction in the engine. Maybe try a different carb just for kicks?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

I'd be curious what rpm the engine sees at 55 mph compared with other 3 rib buses that have higher top speeds. Might be worth putting a tach on it. If you're seeing higher revs could be gearing issue. Could tire size be a factor? If revs are normal I might suspect low fuel pressure/volume.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

If you get more noise when you accelerate, but no more RPM out of it sounds like a major restriction in the exhaust, the engine just can't pump the air out so it doesn't suck any more in. Think of it like a clogged cat.

I'd start by disconnecting the hose between the filter & the carb & take it for a test drive. I nothing changes, it's possibly on the exhaust side, creating an exhaust leak for a quick test drive to see if there's a change in performance.

If there's no change there, I'd suspect an issue with either the cam lobes or cam timing.

A low fuel volume issue would cause stalling or cutting out, not just reaching a certain RPM that it can't push past.

By the description, transmission gearing might change the speed of the vehicle at which the engine reaches it's stall point
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Last edited by TDCTDI on Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

A couple of observations that may or may not play into this:
That duct between the aircleaner and carb looks like it's tilted down towards the carb, is that a short manifold for a 1500 splitty?, does that shorter riser somehow effect induction at speed?, would it be as simple as putting a spacer under the carb? (easy fix and worth a try)
Unrelated to the speed issue, but the crank breather hose is attached to the smog fitting on the aircleaner, is there no nipple on the snorkel for it?, does it have the bob weighted flap in it?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Damn these multiple usernames with the same bus, I was hoping the fix was going to be as simple as ditching a few Chinese parts and chrome stuff and educating the adjuster on how to set it up right. Apparently that's already been well covered, bummer.

A temporary tach will tell us if the trans ratio is too low, but you might have already heard it over revving so I'm not so sure that's the issue.
Since everything seems to be correct and dialed in what's left?, small valves?, wrong rockers?, restrictive (defective) muffler?, some F-up with cam grind or gear hole location back when it was rebuilt long ago?
If it's topping out but still has pedal left there must be some sort of restriction in the engine. Maybe try a different carb just for kicks?


It did the same thing with a different engine and carb. Exactly.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

Is the warm air flap in the air filter functioning with the thermostat & flaps correctly?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

Could the engine have been an industrial engine with a different cam?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
If you get more noise when you accelerate, but no more RPM out of it sounds like a major restriction in the exhaust, the engine just can't pump the air out so it doesn't suck any more in. Think of it like a clogged cat.

I'd start by disconnecting the hose between the filter & the carb & take it for a test drive. I nothing changes, it's possibly on the exhaust side, creating an exhaust leak for a quick test drive to see if there's a change in performance.

If there's no change there, I'd suspect an issue with either the cam lobes or cam timing.

A low fuel volume issue would cause stalling or cutting out, not just reaching a certain RPM that it can't push past.

By the description, transmission gearing might change the speed of the vehicle at which the engine reaches it's stall point


It's not trying to stall. It's just topping out. I can get the Bus up to 40 easily and 45 with minor effort in 3rd, but 4th tops out at 55? WTF, LOL.

Here's some evidence:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Cam timing is right on the money.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
Is the warm air flap in the air filter functioning with the thermostat & flaps correctly?


Affirmative
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
Could the engine have been an industrial engine with a different cam?


Factory exchange AS41. Don't forget, the first totally different engine acted exactly the same way.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
TDCTDI wrote:
Could the engine have been an industrial engine with a different cam?


Factory exchange AS41. Don't forget, the first totally different engine acted exactly the same way.


Was anything from that engine transferred to the new one? Maybe the exhaust & intake?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Tram wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

A couple of observations that may or may not play into this:
That duct between the aircleaner and carb looks like it's tilted down towards the carb, is that a short manifold for a 1500 splitty?, does that shorter riser somehow effect induction at speed?, would it be as simple as putting a spacer under the carb? (easy fix and worth a try)
Unrelated to the speed issue, but the crank breather hose is attached to the smog fitting on the aircleaner, is there no nipple on the snorkel for it?, does it have the bob weighted flap in it?


Intake has the correct nipple for the throttle positioner master off to the side. The reason the snorkel looks tilted is that the Bus had the air cleaner shelf cut off. Since the owners may or may not use their bigger engine for a summer cruiser, the replacement "shelf" bolts to what's left of the original so it can be removed and installed at will. Thus it sits slightly higher.

Exhaust is bone stock heater boxes and NEW VW logo'd stock muffler and tailpipe. You can feel the pulses even and strong out the tailpipe just as you should at idle. Except for trying to get above 55 in 4th, it seems nothing is choking and/ or restricting the engine whatsoever.

A little video goodness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_TFP8ElDbQ
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
Tram wrote:
TDCTDI wrote:
Could the engine have been an industrial engine with a different cam?


Factory exchange AS41. Don't forget, the first totally different engine acted exactly the same way.


Was anything from that engine transferred to the new one? Maybe the exhaust & intake?


Cylinder heads, exhaust, cooling tin, flywheel, clutch. No sign of any restriction on the NEW factory VW logo exhaust. Intake is different since the original had a heat riser that would NOT unplug no matter what. This one is clear.
The cylinder heads are Type 3 Mexican (which sorta bothers me- not the Type 3 part, the "not German" part) but the comp test was great.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

You've changed engines, carbs, distributors, & everything still responds the same, if you transferred the intake & exhaust from one engine to the other, I'd lean towards one of the two, primarily the exhaust, but that's just me.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
You've changed engines, carbs, distributors, & everything still responds the same, if you transferred the intake & exhaust from one engine to the other, I'd lean towards one of the two, primarily the exhaust, but that's just me.


One would think there would be way more signs of that than JUST topping out at 55 in 4th, yes? And again... New GERMAN VW logo'd muffler and tailpipe.

And let me clarify: Between the last engine and this one, no, everything does not respond the same. This engine is far far FAR better. It starts easier, tunes WAY easier, idles and runs smoother, responds far better, and runs cooler than the first one that had what was supposed to be the equivalent of a Web 100 cam but was a complete cock to tune.

What remains the same is topping out at 55. Everything else is night and day. This engine totally runs and sounds like a new original VW 1600 should. The other one had a really annoying idle lope, among other things like not being able to get a consistent idle speed.
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Last edited by Tram on Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: The Bi- Coastal Bi Polar Bus. Reply with quote

It revs nicely, have you tried holding it at WOT to see if the engine can climb past whatever RPM it can't with a load on it?
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