My Detroit sandrail/pleasure craft... or "Carmela's Concession"

[dennismcd707]

As I indicated before, I'm putting together two different engines. Why? I'm not exactly sure. I went on impulse instead of careful planning. I mean, the rail needs some stuff, and it's not cheap. What I should have done was completed one engine first, then concentrated on buying what I needed for the rail (wheels, tires, shocks, gages, shifter, brakes, lights, wiring, S T E R E O, etc.). Then, if I could afford to build another engine, I could.

So now.......... I'm scramblin' a bit to buy what I need, without having to explain another purchase to my wife. And today, I bought my second set of heads, and my first brand new distributor. As of right now I have ready for assembly: 2 new cases with full flow, 1 forged 74mm counter weighted crank and 1 cast 69mm counter weighted crank, 1 Engle W-100 cam and 1 Eagle racing cam (I guess the terminology is, it’s got a good grind), 2 sets of identical heads (Super Stocker L-3 heads from ACN), 1 set of 4140 I-beam conn. rods and 1 set of 4340 H-beam conn. rods, 1 set of forged MAHLE 87mm p & c's and 1 set of cast MAHLE 87mm p & c's.

That’s everything “big” that I have…………where I have 2 of. And everything up to this point is brand new too. I have only one carb set up (brand new center mount Weber 44 IDF) and one distributor chosen (brand new “Pertronix 1 SVDA” distributor with electronic ignition), and I haven’t even thought much about the exhaust system.

I do have this Pinto / Motorcraft / Weber / Holley 5200 carburetor that I could rebuild and use for my second engine. I called it that because I think that’s what I’ve seen it referred to as, on both this website and others. If this carb is okay to use, then I have the 2 carb set ups for my 2 engines. If not, I have to figure out what I can afford for my second engine, carb wise.

And lastly, I have 3 old distributors from 3 engines that I bought. (Every single case had a crack in it somewhere.) 2 of them are Bosch 009’s and the 3rd one is a Bosch SVDA (Did I identify it correctly?) They all say Bosch Germany on the bottoms, and one of them appears to be frozen/seized up. I could just buy another Pertronix SVDA from Amazon for $120. Either way, I have to read up on distributors some more. I'm pretty sure I want one with the vacuum advance, right? (As long as I provide it with a source of vacuum, like the carb......, I know.)

On another note, I also have a 6 volt starter that came with my bus transaxle. Has anybody ever heard anything about using a 6 volt starter in a 12 volt system. I know the starter gear and flywheel teeth have to match, that's not what I'm asking. I read something about how it's good to have a 6 volt starter, but I can't remember the details. Anybody?

Dennis

[heywebonya]

I ran a 6V starter for several months. No issues, the challenge is that it may overheat running 12V through the 6V starter. It works fine. As you mentioned the biggest concern is the at the bushing is the 6V to align the starter wheel teeth.
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If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy!

[Bashr52]

And you will have to run a 6 volt flywheel, most of which were 180mm. You want a 200mm 12 volt flywheel. Buy an autostick starter, no bushing to worry about, higher torque, and bolts right in.

[dennismcd707]

Nice to know that if I need a starter with some extra torque, I should get an autostick starter. I'm sure a stock 12 volt starter will work fine. I mean, I haven't heard about any reason not to use one. And I'm probably never going to use this 6 volt starter either, I'm just fishing for a reason to use it. I thought I read that they were good to have.

Yea, plus I've got 3 stock 12 volt flywheels, AND 2 new 12 volt flywheels drilled for 8 dowels. (So 5 in total.)

I have to read up on wiring my rail, as well as getting a rebuilt starter and choosing between and alt. or gen. Since this is 2017, probably an alternator, in which case I want to buy one and check it off my list. Today (right now) I'm working on putting the bus transaxle back together and cleaning the spring plates that came off the bus too.

[dennismcd707]

I know that there have to be lots of other people out there besides me that don't have a garage filled with tools and equipment, so I don't have to explain how frustrating this kind of stuff is.......without an acetylene torch or cut off tool. Something!! Anything!! My garage doesn't even have a decent vise. (but I'm NOT complaining. No sir, no complaints. In the big picture, I'm working on a hobby of mine, torch or no torch. Right? I'm employed, loved, and playing with rusty bolts on my day off. Why should I complain? Seriously?)

Hour number two, Rusty Bolt: 1 Dennis: 0



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[pullstart]

maybe try a MAP gas torch? If you get it hot then quench it with a piece of wax, it'll pull into the threads and act as a lubricant as well. worth a shot...
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4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.

my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0

[dennismcd707]

Xmas in November. I got home from work last night and found a couple of packages waiting to be opened. New super stocker heads from ACN (ported with stock valve sizes) and a brand new Pertronix SVDA distributor. These heads are only the 1st set. 2nd set for 2nd engine will be arriving in the next 2 weeks or so. And since I've always liked Xmas mornings, I try to have several of them per year. The older I get, the more I need. Life is short. I mean, it's really really short. Didn't Nirvana's "Nevermind" and Pearl Jam's "Ten" just get released? Isn't the song "Under The Bridge" by the Red Hot Chili Peppers, or "Stop" by Jane's Addiction, playing on just about every single decent radio station in Detroit & Windsor? Hmmmmmmmmmm...... 2017, man life is short! R.I.P. Malcolm Young/AC-DC architech




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Thanks for the tip on removing that rusty shock bolt. So........... since it's Sunday morning, I'm gonna go put some long johns on, maybe a couple of sweatshirts and a hat, and go out in the garage and start hacksawing that bolt. Remember, I don't have a vise, so you know I definitely don't have a heated garage. Last Wednesday I cut through almost half way, so we'll see how far I get today. I have a MAP torch, and have used it on this stupid shock bolt, but man...............it's not even beginning to look like it wants to come out. I've drilled through the center of it, beat the snot out of it, and now I'm using a hack saw. Once I do cut through the bolt, that will allow me to at least get the shock out of the way. Then I can beat on it some more, but from a different angle. And I'll try the wax trick next.

Vielen Dank



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[dennismcd707]

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Rusty shock bolt & a hack saw walk into a bar.... Warren Zevon's "Send Lawyers Guns & Money" blares from the jukebox............


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[heywebonya]

How are you going to mount your Gear Reduction Boxes (GRB)? Vertical for height or lay back for travel?

I have both a full GRB transmission with boxes and a Type one.

Thanks
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If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy!

[dennismcd707]

I haven't given any thought to how the gear reduction boxes will be mounted. Until your question, I just assumed that they mounted only one certain way. I guess since I don't have any special skills or tools (I've never welded anything in my life, I'm not good at engineering stuff, and I don't have the biggest tool selection.), I'll probably just mount them whichever way they fit best. Doesn't the way the shock connects to the rail dictate the method for mounting the RGB's? Remember, if I have to fabricate something, I either run to a friend for help or pay somebody to do it for me. Also, the vehicle isn't mobile, so all work has to be done in my garage.......unless it's small enough that I can take someplace.

............So, given the parameters above, do I still have options for mounting my RGB's? Here is a photo of my old transaxle and the way the shocks hook up.

I also am getting ready to purchase a disc brake conversion kit. Anybody see a problem here? It looks easy, especially because of all the room I have to work with.

[pullstart]

Ditch that front sway bar! No need for it on a rail...
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4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.

my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0

[heywebonya]

Rear or front disc brakes? I added rear to my swing axle and it works great. Ny current build has spindles like your and I may keep it that way by adding good reliable discs with e-brake in the rear.

Search GRBs and there is a good amount of information. Are you after height or running bigger wheels?
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If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy!

[dennismcd707]

I spent some time in the garage yesterday. The main focus lately has been my bus transaxle. I had hoped it would be easy to just swap out the torsion bars, spring plates, and transaxle, but now I'm not so sure. (I wanted to post this before I went out to work on it again today.) First, after removing the axle shafts from the old trans, I looked at the fulcrum plates. Not any worse or better than the ones from the bus trans. They just look used. The spring plates are close, but the bus plate is a tad bigger. Next, the torsion bars themselves.........And here's where I'm confused.

The bus bar is longer and thicker. I like that! But isn't it going to be a problem fitting into the torsion bar housing tube? I have to read up on it to fully understand what I'm doing, but as I said, I wanted to post this thread first...........and to show some of my pics from yesterday. I also have learned a little about mounting the RGB's............laying down. Good for bigger tires, right? And there are some adapter kits available? (Remember, there's not much fabricating on this thing that I can do myself. I have no special skills or tools.)

I took some pics of my starters too. I just bought a new one, and I wanted to compare it to the others that I had. The 6 volt starter is mixed in with the 12 volt starters, and has a thicker shaft. I also have this box of new parts that I can't wait to dive into today. (throw out bearing, trans seals and gaskets, brake hardware, new axle boots, wheel cylinders, wheel bearings, etc.) On another note, I also have to find out about new engine cases and how they attach to the trans. Here's a couple of pics of one of my new engines. The holes are threaded, so ............? Again, I have to read up on a lot of this stuff. My old cases don't have threads here, so..............?

And the passenger side spring plate is being very difficult. I used the BFH a lot yesterday, but it's still stuck. I'll use the map torch and beat on it some more today. I hadn't noticed before, but the torsion bar cover plates were so rusted they had holes in them. Rust Never Sleeps............when you're out of the black, and into the blue. And the bushings remind me of boots made of Chinese plastic.

Oh.....and that sway bar up front will be addressed when I start digging into that area.

[pullstart]

On the passenger spring plate, do you have that cover off but the spring plate won't come off the torsion spring? Pull the driver's torsion bar out and drive a long smaller diameter piece of pipe or rod in through that side and beat it out with that BFH. Then you can address it on the workbench.
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4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.

my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0

[heywebonya]

Dennis,

The Bus transmission with GRB is 1.5" wider than the standard Type I transmission. You will need to add spacers to get it to fit properly. This will either require to buy or fabricate some additional spacers.

Do a search of GRB installations and you will see what I mean.

I have both types of transmissions and reaching the point of trying to decide which way to go forward.

Type 1 Swing Axle - simple to install. Max tire size ~ 30" tall

Bus Swing with GRB - requires fabrication. Larger tires and higher ground clearance.

Here are a couple of ideas for mounting GRBs that look simple to build

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If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy!

[dennismcd707]

I finally got the passenger side torsion bar out of the tube along with the starboard side spring plate. All I had to do was punch it through from the other side. (Thank you pullstart!!)

I also took the nose cone off both of the transmissions. The type 1 trans nose cone is all jacked up, while the bus tranny nose cone is whole.... and much cleaner, both inside and out. It looks like at some point the P.O. of the type 1 trans had problems either accessing the nuts for the front trans mount, or maybe tried to install it in a vehicle where it wouldn't fit right. Either way, I'm glad I have both of these types of swing axles to play with.

I did a little bit more reading on the possible RGB set-ups and installation procedures, but I'm nowhere near the point of fully understanding the whole process. It seems a lot of the focus is on the actual RGB's and how they attach to the spring plate. (in almost all of the photos dealing with RGB installation, the pictures never show the spring plate at the torsion bar end.......they're always dealing with the axle tube end) I already know how my RGB's attach to the spring plate, with the stock 4 bolts and washers that I took them off with. But is the problem here really my choice of torsion bars?

If I want to use the bus torsion bars "AND" spring plates, the only problem I see is the torsion bars are 1.5 inches too long. They would stick out of the rear suspension torsion bar tube housing. (that's a long name) So in my head, that's the only issue. I need some sort of spacer on each side, probably under the spring plate cover. ..................And since I'm using the spring plates that came with the bus, and thus are a match for the RGB's, I shouldn't need anything special to mount them, provided they are installed upright, the way they were mounted on the bus originally.

There are so many things I'd like to do or try with this rail, and over time I'll probably get the chance to many of them. I've got my hard earned money invested in my engines, and I think it would be stupid of me not to protect that. I think a wise move is a nice skid plate as well as some type of engine cage. Both of these things are high up on my list of MUST DO things....... but I think (knowing myself as I do) I need to get the rail mobile first. That should be my MAIN FOCUS, because otherwise I get bogged down with little stuff. I shouldn't say "little stuff", but my point is, decisions about types of skid plates, whether I should "lay down" the RGB's, should I use front brake wheel cylinders in the rears, should I get a tow-bar or a trailer, should I expect good or bad quality items if I order disc brake conversion parts from EMPI, etc....

So, I really should get the rail mobile, drive it off road a little. Gently at first......(Do I have a skid plate installed yet? How is my stopping ability? It's gotta be gently at first, but driven nonetheless.) I can then make decisions based on some of my off road driving experiences, right? I think mounting my RGB's upright still has it's advantages, and I'm good with that for now, but what do I do about the longer torsion bars? If spacers are all that's needed, I haven't found any online yet. If I have to go have them made, can you help me with the specs, or at least a clear picture in my head of where they would go, or how'd they'd be used? That would be splendid!

What if I just used the type 1 torsion bars from the old set-up? Will the bus spring plates fit over the type 1 bar just like the other spring plates did? If so, mission accomplished! The bus torsion bar is fatter and longer, and to me that represents strength. I'd prefer it over the smaller one ............ but on a rail, would the main benefit be it could withstand more of a beating? Again, I like that, but if I can use the smaller type 1 torsion bar for now, then that's what I'll plan on............. in keeping with my new #1 goal............GETTING THE RAIL MOBILE.

I'm gonna go out to the garage to play a bit, but I'll have my laptop with me so I can check the thread. I'm eager to hear more about swapping torsion bars............ or not being able to swap torsion bars, whatever the case may be. Plus, I need an understanding of where the spacers would fit if I choose to use the big torsion bars.............and as usual, vielen Dank

[heywebonya]

Dennis,

I am very interested to see if the Bus Plates will fit on the Type 1 torsion bars. I never considered that. If they do, then all you will need is a 1.5" thick block and longer bolts at the arm RGB (just noticed I had been using GRB) to mount them.

Great pictures and good plan
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If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy!

[dennismcd707]

Unfortunately, the bus torsion bar is bigger in diameter, so the bus spring plate won't fit onto the splines of the type 1 torsion bar. Even the bolt hole patterns on the torsion bar covers are spaced differently. It's possible the only way I can use my bus spring plates without having to alter them would be to find some bars that would fit both the plates and the rail.

.............or I could alter the bus plates by just having somebody cut off the splined ends and then welding them directly onto the spring plates that came with the rail. I think that's a pretty simple method that might work, plus I'd have some pretty thick spring plates. That's gotta be a good thing, right?

But......if there are torsion bars out there that would fit into my rail on one end, and into the splines of my bus spring plates on the other, I'd sure like to know how much they'd cost. However, just cutting my plates and attaching them to the others sure sounds like a good idea. Cheap and easy too. Yes?



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[dustymojave]

It seems that you're missing the point that everybody else uses the Bug torsion housing and torsion bars, and adapts the RGBs onto Bug spring plates. That's why all the pics show the axle ends of the spring plates and not the torsion bar ends. That's also been the point of those making suggestions so far on this thread. Since you say you're new to this stuff, it's perfectly understandable that you were missing that point.

The swingaxle VW Bus was rated at 1 ton cargo capacity, so the torsion bars and spring plates and even the torsion housing (short version of the long name) are a little stouter than Bug parts.

RGB suspension will raise up the rear of the buggy when you apply power. That can be a problem at times. Laying the RGBs down helps control that, so do the No-Hop traction bar setup for upright installation. There is also a No-Hop kit to install the RGBs laid down. The No-Hop kits have not been available for 20 some years other than the occasional sale of used parts on the Samba Classifieds.

Unless you find a No-Hop kit for sale, you really need someone to fabricate the adapters to mount the RGBs to the spring plates and if upright, then to fabricate the bars and the tabs to weld to the torsion housing for you. The original Johnny Johnson No-Hop kits used traction links that were from C2-C3 Corvette rear suspension. Speedway Motors sells link rod kits for hot rods that could be used to make new ones. The tabs to weld to the torsion housing for those rods are simple flat plate stock. But the spring plate adapter/lower shock mount is the more difficult part. Johnny Johnson's kit has a tube that bolt to the spring plate and slips over the axle housing tube which allows the axle housing and RGB to rotate in relation to the spring plate, and allows the rod to control the tendency to raise up or "hop".
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[dennismcd707]

Thank you for the information. My understanding of wheel hop is it's a characteristic of having RGB's, and most people don't like it. But I've also read where some people use it to their advantage, so it doesn't sound like something I should avoid at all cost. An issue to some, and not to others. If wheel hop is something that's really dangerous, or if it's gonna allow damage to other parts, then that's one thing........ but if it's something that people actually use to their advantage when driving off-road, then that's something else and I need to experience it for myself. I don't think I missed everybody's point, I'm guessing it was more because I was dismissing the issue of wheel hop relative to it being more of a choice instead of a hinderance. Does that make sense? The main question is: ..... is wheel hop something that I should experience first, or something I should totally avoid?

And couldn't I just weld my bus spring plate onto the rail's pre-existing Type 1 spring plate? The end result would be I'd have my RGB's mounted without much special fabricating, and my rail would be mobile. Would the only issue here then be just wheel hop, or would there be something else of importance to note? I appreciate all of the help and experience that you can share, and I mean that.