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blues90 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009 Posts: 1912 Location: Hollywood ,CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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The Black in not power. Fuse 10 is the brake light fuse the feed to the 3 way connector or hot is red black then another red black to the brake lights . The three way connector should have a red in the center and a red black in each of the outside there is also a single connector in the red black to the brake lights T1 does not say where it's located yet my guess is near the left side corner near the left of the fuse box above to the left of the fuse box.
One red black on that 3 way connector should be hot key on the other red black hot brake applied the center red to the warning lamp hot only key on. There should be no black wire in that connector. I would check where that black wire comes from and find where the missing red black is. Then go from there. |
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oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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blues90 wrote: |
The Black in not power. Fuse 10 is the brake light fuse the feed to the 3 way connector or hot is red black then another red black to the brake lights . The three way connector should have a red in the center and a red black in each of the outside there is also a single connector in the red black to the brake lights T1 does not say where it's located yet my guess is near the left side corner near the left of the fuse box above to the left of the fuse box.
One red black on that 3 way connector should be hot key on the other red black hot brake applied the center red to the warning lamp hot only key on. There should be no black wire in that connector. I would check where that black wire comes from and find where the missing red black is. Then go from there. |
thx for the help/reply. I took another closer pic and tried to write what I see on it. Im not getting any power to any of them as well as the warning light on the dash either.
_________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
Build thread here.....
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
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oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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Here’s a quick pic of what my fuse panel looks like on that side. The only wire added was the red on for my electric fuel pump.
_________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
Build thread here.....
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
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oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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Is there anywhere else (or any other way) to post a quick video here???
So really weird now, my gen light is “glowing” and when I hit my brakes it gets really bright. I really don’t understand that at all. I haven’t crossed anything and any wires that I moved I put right back where that were as I moved it to make sure I remembered where they were. This is really getting frustrating.... _________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
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blues90 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009 Posts: 1912 Location: Hollywood ,CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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oxsign wrote: |
blues90 wrote: |
The Black in not power. Fuse 10 is the brake light fuse the feed to the 3 way connector or hot is red black then another red black to the brake lights . The three way connector should have a red in the center and a red black in each of the outside there is also a single connector in the red black to the brake lights T1 does not say where it's located yet my guess is near the left side corner near the left of the fuse box above to the left of the fuse box.
One red black on that 3 way connector should be hot key on the other red black hot brake applied the center red to the warning lamp hot only key on. There should be no black wire in that connector. I would check where that black wire comes from and find where the missing red black is. Then go from there. |
thx for the help/reply. I took another closer pic and tried to write what I see on it. Im not getting any power to any of them as well as the warning light on the dash either.
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On your fuse box to the right of the red added wire is fuse 10 for the brake lights there in nothing connected there at all . in the photo there is a black fuse 10 top of photo that is the hot to the ign coil it is not fused . Fuses 10,11 &12 are all connected hot all the time now fuse 11 should have a black right next to the one on fuse 10 to the right it is hot key on I don't see it. I do see a black red on the fused side of fuse 11 you see the double spades that's the fused side . that black wire on fuse 12 right side should not be there . Also there is a green black on fuse 12 should not be there those are the fused side on fuse 12 nothing should be there just the small black under the green black. My guess see if the black on fuse 12 the bottom of photo is hot key on it then should be on fuse 11 and the red black on fuse 11 on fuse 10 on the 71 wiring diag there should be the red black , a thin black and a heavy black on the fused side of fuse 10 where there is nothing now.
Here's where i see an issue . on the 71 wiring in the Bentley there is not green wire in the fuse box on a 72 there is . It sort of looks like you either have a early 72 . If you have a colored Bentley check out the early 72 late 71 on the three way connector in your photo matches and fuse 11 would be the brake light and the green black should be on the none fused side of fuse 11 . and still nothing should be on the fuses side of fuse 12 where you now have a heavy black and the green/black .
I hope this helps there are colored wiring diagrams on Samba if yours is black and white. I would check from fuse 9 to fuse 12 it's all screwed up there. You may need to check to see where each wire goes from fuse 7 to 12 , if in fact you have a late 71 early 72 use that diagram since to me it looks like that's what you have. Someone has been in there or changed the harness the green wire is the give away. Fuse 7 should be the fuel pump relay 9 on a 71 is the door buzzer. Sorry seems you have some electrical work to do first see if can can compare the 71 and late 71 early 72 in order to see what I'm am saying here.
Last edited by blues90 on Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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blues90 wrote: |
oxsign wrote: |
blues90 wrote: |
The Black in not power. Fuse 10 is the brake light fuse the feed to the 3 way connector or hot is red black then another red black to the brake lights . The three way connector should have a red in the center and a red black in each of the outside there is also a single connector in the red black to the brake lights T1 does not say where it's located yet my guess is near the left side corner near the left of the fuse box above to the left of the fuse box.
One red black on that 3 way connector should be hot key on the other red black hot brake applied the center red to the warning lamp hot only key on. There should be no black wire in that connector. I would check where that black wire comes from and find where the missing red black is. Then go from there. |
thx for the help/reply. I took another closer pic and tried to write what I see on it. Im not getting any power to any of them as well as the warning light on the dash either.
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On your fuse box to the right of the red added wire is fuse 10 for the brake lights there in nothing connected there at all . in the photo there is a black fuse 10 top of photo that is the hot to the ign coil it is not fused . Fuses 10,11 &12 are all connected hot all the time now fuse 11 should have a black right next to the one on fuse 10 to the right it is hot key on I don't see it. I do see a black red on the fused side of fuse 11 you see the double spades that's the fused side . that black wire on fuse 12 right side should not be there . Also there is a green black on fuse 12 should not be there those are the fused side on fuse 12 nothing should be there just the small black under the green black. My guess see if the black on fuse 12 the bottom of photo is hot key on it then should be on fuse 11 and the red black on fuse 11 on fuse 10 on the 71 wiring diag there should be the red black , a thin black and a heavy black on the fused side of fuse 10 where there is nothing now.
Here's where i see an issue . on the 71 wiring in the Bentley there is not green wire in the fuse box on a 72 there is . It sort of looks like you either have a early 72 . If you have a colored Bentley check out the early 72 late 71 on the three way connector in your photo matches and fuse 11 would be the brake light and the green black should be on the none fused side of fuse 11 . and still nothing should be on the fuses side of fuse 12 where you now have a heavy black and the green/black .
I hope this helps there are colored wiring diagrams on Samba if yours is black and white. I would check from fuse 9 to fuse 12 it's all screwed up there. You may need to check to see where each wire goes from fuse 7 to 12 , if in fact you have a late 71 early 72 use that diagram since to me it looks like that's what you have. Someone has been in there or changed the harness the green wire is the give away. |
thanks for that, really. I’m gonna have to take a break and reread that again, lol. Nothing is making sense to me right now, lol. I’m trying to stay positive with this issue and work it through. So I’ll go back in and cool off for a bit. I did notice that green wire and I couldn’t find it in any of the diagrams either. Didn’t think you look at a ‘72 though. I’ll look through that as well. I did see that the 3 are connected and I also didn’t see a main power source either. _________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
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oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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Ok, going off of what @blues90 was saying about no main power source, I decided to go back out and run a single wire from the battery to the #11 fuse post that is empty. BAM!!!! I have brake lights!!!!! So, now I need to figure out where the main source of power comes from that is supposed to be there to begin with. _________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
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oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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Should there be a main power wire from the regular to that “bank” of 2 (10,11,12)?? I only ask because Some wires from the regulator we’re moved around when we added the alt. “Looking at diagrams now” _________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33820 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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oxsign wrote: |
Here’s a quick pic of what my fuse panel looks like on that side. The only wire added was the red on for my electric fuel pump.
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In your pic, keep in mind the upper connector row is the supply side, with some bridges between fuses.
Components connect on the lower side.
The far right fuse in your pic is also the far right fuse in the wiring diagram. You are looking at the back side so this will take some getting used to, since the "supply side" in the wiring diagram is on the bottom. Too bad VW didn't number them sequentially, it would make this much easier.
At least when compared to the '71 wiring diagram, I see some problems:
1) Counting from the right, 5th from the right... seems to have a brown or maybe faded white wire. Nothing like that in the diagram there. If it's brown, it's usually a ground, and should not have any connection to the fusebox. If a ground is given power, that will make all sorts of things go wrong. I suggest you gently trace that wire and tell us what it's connected to.
2) I don't know what the fat green wire is on the end fuse, either. The '72 diagram has a green wire, but not connected there. I'm thinking you have a late'71 that has some of the '72 wiring, what a nightmare!
3) I don't see anything connected of the #2 fuse other then the red/black to the supply side (lower side of fusebox in your pic) wire.
So with enough plugged in wrong now, I would not piecemeal the fix, it will drive you nuits and may damage some equipment.
I would make a day's job of this... download the '71 and '72 diagrams above, and have your local kinko's blow it up poster size and laminate them. Pick up a few dry-erase markers while are there.
Take more photos of the present condition. If you have a handy label maker, you might label the wires as you disconnect them, based wither on the terminal number on the other end of the wire, or an English description of what it connects to.
Figure out whether your car is wired like a '71 or a '72. Pick the closest diagram. Then unplug it all!
Start reconnecting per the chosen diagram. Use the marker to check off each wire and each connection as you work. This way you will be 100% sure all is connected correctly.
And you have some bitchin' garage wall art when you are done!
Last edited by KTPhil on Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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blues90 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009 Posts: 1912 Location: Hollywood ,CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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oxsign wrote: |
blues90 wrote: |
oxsign wrote: |
blues90 wrote: |
The Black in not power. Fuse 10 is the brake light fuse the feed to the 3 way connector or hot is red black then another red black to the brake lights . The three way connector should have a red in the center and a red black in each of the outside there is also a single connector in the red black to the brake lights T1 does not say where it's located yet my guess is near the left side corner near the left of the fuse box above to the left of the fuse box.
One red black on that 3 way connector should be hot key on the other red black hot brake applied the center red to the warning lamp hot only key on. There should be no black wire in that connector. I would check where that black wire comes from and find where the missing red black is. Then go from there. |
thx for the help/reply. I took another closer pic and tried to write what I see on it. Im not getting any power to any of them as well as the warning light on the dash either.
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On your fuse box to the right of the red added wire is fuse 10 for the brake lights there in nothing connected there at all . in the photo there is a black fuse 10 top of photo that is the hot to the ign coil it is not fused . Fuses 10,11 &12 are all connected hot all the time now fuse 11 should have a black right next to the one on fuse 10 to the right it is hot key on I don't see it. I do see a black red on the fused side of fuse 11 you see the double spades that's the fused side . that black wire on fuse 12 right side should not be there . Also there is a green black on fuse 12 should not be there those are the fused side on fuse 12 nothing should be there just the small black under the green black. My guess see if the black on fuse 12 the bottom of photo is hot key on it then should be on fuse 11 and the red black on fuse 11 on fuse 10 on the 71 wiring diag there should be the red black , a thin black and a heavy black on the fused side of fuse 10 where there is nothing now.
Here's where i see an issue . on the 71 wiring in the Bentley there is not green wire in the fuse box on a 72 there is . It sort of looks like you either have a early 72 . If you have a colored Bentley check out the early 72 late 71 on the three way connector in your photo matches and fuse 11 would be the brake light and the green black should be on the none fused side of fuse 11 . and still nothing should be on the fuses side of fuse 12 where you now have a heavy black and the green/black .
I hope this helps there are colored wiring diagrams on Samba if yours is black and white. I would check from fuse 9 to fuse 12 it's all screwed up there. You may need to check to see where each wire goes from fuse 7 to 12 , if in fact you have a late 71 early 72 use that diagram since to me it looks like that's what you have. Someone has been in there or changed the harness the green wire is the give away. |
thanks for that, really. I’m gonna have to take a break and reread that again, lol. Nothing is making sense to me right now, lol. I’m trying to stay positive with this issue and work it through. So I’ll go back in and cool off for a bit. I did notice that green wire and I couldn’t find it in any of the diagrams either. Didn’t think you look at a ‘72 though. I’ll look through that as well. I did see that the 3 are connected and I also didn’t see a main power source either. |
You will figure it out . I realize it's a pain and it's difficult to make sense of these wiring diagrams . Some times it's easier to remove the drivers seat so you can get a better look without trying to fight the steering wheel and seat . I don't see an issue by the three way connector it's all at the fuse box . It's also difficult to get at most of the wires , I look at the diagrams and being almost 71 and my eyes blur many here get them blown up at a print shop to make it easier to see and have them covered in plastic so you can mark areas out. That green and black both in one 1/4" female crimp tells me you do not have a 71 I can't imagine the harness was changed that's a lot of work and not reasonable I say this because the three way connector looks like it was not tampered with and it's wired like a late 71 early 72 . Just remember one thing when you do this sort of work it's best to check where wires go if you can't see them disconnect the battery neg since many are not fused then check and use an ohm meter last thing you want is a burnt up harness or car. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33820 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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The triple connector looks correct, once you rotate the photo 180 degrees to match the wiring diagram orientation.
The black/white at the bottom left is actually black/yellow, I expect.
I think your chassis wiring is a mix of '71 and '72. The presence of a green wire is a '72 thing, but the rest looks more like '71. One difference is in the brake check button. If you can carefully pop the button/lamp assembly out of the dash (pinch it from behind), and count the number of terminals on it, we can tell which you have:
3 terminals is for '71
5 terminals is for '72-up |
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blues90 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009 Posts: 1912 Location: Hollywood ,CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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oxsign wrote: |
Should there be a main power wire from the regular to that “bank” of 2 (10,11,12)?? I only ask because Some wires from the regulator we’re moved around when we added the alt. “Looking at diagrams now” |
I don't know. The red/white heavy say 10 gauge from where the gen regulator was one came off the pos battery to the reg then from the reg it then goes along the left rocker inside to feed power to the fuse box and it also takes power off the headlamp switch to feed power to other areas. As long as the red/white is hot all the time from your alt reg to the fuse box then it should not matter.
What you might want to do is pull all the fuses and see just what fuse holders have power all the time these will be at the bottom of the fuse box the top is after the fuse.
Last edited by blues90 on Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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KTPhil wrote: |
The triple connector looks correct, once you rotate the photo 180 degrees to match the wiring diagram orientation.
The black/white at the bottom left is actually black/yellow, I expect.
I think your chassis wiring is a mix of '71 and '72. The presence of a green wire is a '72 thing, but the rest looks more like '71. One difference is in the brake check button. If you can carefully pop the button/lamp assembly out of the dash (pinch it from behind), and count the number of terminals on it, we can tell which you have:
3 terminals is for '71
5 terminals is for '72-up |
im not sure if you read it but I ran a wire directly from the battery to the #11 (as a main source) and I now have brake lights.
As for the check button, it’s a 3 terminal.
_________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
Build thread here.....
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33820 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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So it's looking more '71-ish than '72-ish, save for that green wire. On a '72 green leads to the 4-way flasher switch. if you peek at the switch and see green then that mystery is solved.
I hate mid-year changes!
By the way, when you reach behind the dash and especially when pulling the fusebox and devices like that switch to the front, I'd disconnect the battery ground strap from the battery. You can make big sparks with a short, even with the ignition off. I had that happen when working on a door switch... power always there! |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33820 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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oxsign wrote: |
im not sure if you read it but I ran a wire directly from the battery to the #11 (as a main source) and I now have brake lights. |
How are you numbering? Left to right in your photo?
So I am more convinced that someone mixed up the fusebox wires, maybe connecting them to the wrong side (bypassing the fuse ) or wrong terminal.
So I'd print out that part of the diagram and check each terminal and wire on both sides. That may fix everything. I'd also replace all fuses and clean where they fit to make sure contacts are all good. They can look fine and still be bad.
Last edited by KTPhil on Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:01 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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blues90 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009 Posts: 1912 Location: Hollywood ,CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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Since you have what appears some of the 72 wiring and a 71 car as long as you wire it per the 71 diagram and mark the wires wire color is not important.
It would be nice I you can find where the later wires were added at some point it's possible they were added as replacements just at the fuse box itself to replace wires that may have been burnt at some point. Most of the power wires will be on the headlamp switch and 4 way then connect to the fuse box. If it were me I would wire it like a 71 since it's clear it's not a 72 see where that green black begin that might clear it all up . It's best to use factory connectors at the box and from the switches so if needed used the green just label it and so on. |
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blues90 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009 Posts: 1912 Location: Hollywood ,CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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KTPhil wrote: |
oxsign wrote: |
im not sure if you read it but I ran a wire directly from the battery to the #11 (as a main source) and I now have brake lights. |
How are you numbering? Left to right in your photo?
So I am more convinced that someone mixed up the fusebox wires, maybe connecting them to the wrong side (bypassing the fuse ) or wrong terminal.
So I'd print out that part of the diagram and check each terminal and wire on both sides. That may fix everything. I'd also replace all fuses and clean where they fit to make sure contacts are all good. They can look fine and still be bad. |
Phil I'm pretty sure he is going left to right . I was just looking at the right side of the box he does not have the full box in the photo. He can still wire it like a 71 and just use the wires he has and focus on the right side wire color after it's correct does not matter. Better to use the stock connectors and wire if possible. You are repeating some of what I have already said so we might confuse things . I'll bow out if it's less confusing. |
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oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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KTPhil wrote: |
oxsign wrote: |
im not sure if you read it but I ran a wire directly from the battery to the #11 (as a main source) and I now have brake lights. |
How are you numbering? Left to right in your photo?
d. |
right to left looking at the picture. Actually it was the third one in from the right that I put the wire on. Also, when I did this I got my turn signals and wipers as well. Without that main power source, I don’t have....
1) brake lt
2) turn signals
3) wipers
However, I will have emergency flashers, taillights, & reverse lights. _________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
Build thread here.....
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33820 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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No, hearing it a couple of ways increases the chance something will click and set him on a good path. I think we are agreeing the fusebox connections are wonky and need to be set right, and to use the '71 as a baseline unless something nonsensical comes up.
Then, after setting the fusebox right, we can move on and check voltages on both sides for each fusebox terminal (switch on and switch off). There could be trouble lurking in the 1-year only ignition switch, or the headlight switch, too. But unless the fusebox is 100%, such troubles will be masked and send us on wild goose chases.
There is no substitute for thoroughness. Shortcuts usually take longer and damage things. I learned this the hard way, as most of us did! |
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blues90 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009 Posts: 1912 Location: Hollywood ,CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Hello new Square!!!! |
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Yes meant to say left to right . I don't see any reason it can't be wired as a true 71. Still before going any further disconnect the battery neg. Not all the fuse box power points are hot all the time most are key on , the point is last thing you want is a melted harness or fire. With the fuse box down you can see what the headlamp switch is and 4 way to be sure and some of the hot feeds are off the headlamp switch. It's like a series connection to get from one point to another. I can't say for certain yet it's possible his 71 is some mid year change that is part 71 and 72 . One thing is certain the fuse box is wired all wrong at least on the right side. He has wipers now yet they are usually not tied in with the lights and the wiper uses a 16 amp fuse key on power only with the fresh air fan nothing else is usually tied to that circuit. And most certainly nothing other than the fuel pump relay is connected to the fuse for the pump 8 amp fuse. It's fused yet hot key off at the box what controls the pump is ground form the ECU which grounds the coil in the pump relay. |
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