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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10367 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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h00drat wrote: |
Not a syncro driver, and don't spend a TON of time off road.
I already have slightly bigger tires (27") and a 1" lift via Westy springs...so I bet I would be OK.
The benefit of using the cross-flow head and NOT modifying the lid sound pretty good to me. |
I spent way too much time experimenting with engine position on my current swap. But, with ABA on a WBX tranny, with the ABA crank bolt lined up with where the old WBX crank bolt position was, the intake was about 2.5" above the deck. With engine lowered so crossflow intake just touched the engine cover foam, bottom of diesel oil pan was about 10.25" below frame rail. For point of reference, my daily driver '81 15º ABA with pretty much stock diameter tires, WBX tranny, and carrier running under the ABA oil pan, has been driven on many dirt logging roads, down to Baja etc. I forget the measurement but it was more than 10" from rail to bottom of carrier. No ground clearance issues but then I'm really careful about picking my "lines". Well there was that one time I got stuck on a rock "beach" at riverside but thats another story......
Neil.
Drivetrain level with body, cross flow intake just touching foam on engine cover:
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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ELO78 Samba Member
Joined: September 18, 2015 Posts: 167 Location: Oak Park, IL
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h00drat Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016 Posts: 881 Location: Hood River
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:49 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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I guess if I wanted to convert to manual trans that wouldn't be bad. ha. Otherwise, lots of extra parts there.
Last night I got the engine on the stand, and started trying to pull stuff off the donor car. I was fairly unsuccessful (ECU was a pain to find), but I've taken some inventory.
Here are some things that I feel like I need to do to the 2.0 while it's on the stand. Anything else you'd do?
1. Timing Belt
2. Water pump
3. Other belts
I really need to decide on the 2.0 head vs. the 1.8 head before doing this. I'm 99% sure I'll stick with the 2.0 crossflow head.
Planning on using the following...
1. 2.0 block
2. 2.0 cross flow head
3. 2.0 fuel rail and injectors
4. 2.0 intake manifold
5. AFM and air box, unsure. I think the one I have is from the 1.8, which may be for the better since I am using that ECU
6. 1.8 ECU - Digifant 2
7. I believe I need to use the throttle body from the 1.8 to work with digifant 2 and the 1.8 ECU
8. Exhaust header - Note sure yet. I have the 1.8 header from the Fox, which I read somewhere MIGHT work. Will the 1.8 header be too restricting on the 2.0 motor?
Still working on tracking down carrier bars, motor mounts, engines mounts, bell housing.
I think I found an oil pan...so I've got something. haha _________________ <<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
CHC Top Thread
Engine Conversion Thread (2.0 ABA Swap)
ABA Swap - Image Gallery
Auto Trans Rebuild - Image Gallery |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12114 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:09 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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Since you have an automatic there would be some mods to the frame rail where the throttle runs through and on to the lever arm on the trans...assuming you want to lower the drivetrain and fit the crossflow head under the lid. I've thought about this since I plan on converting my van from manual to auto and I also have a lowered drivetrain. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15143 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:09 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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if you have an automatic you can't use a bellhousing. you need to source an adapter plate. KEP Kennedy Engineering has fairly quick turn around times..
you will also HAVE to work out the throttle cable system. as they AT needs the input from the gas pedal at the relay lever to manage kick down. you can't just disconnect it as if the relay lever is too far forward or rearward it will effect shifting and can lead to slippage and burned internal clutches.
in my mom's 86 with the eurovan 2.5l I ran a 2nd cable and used a cable Y-splitter up under the pedal assembly. (like a motorcycle splitter)
I don't know why you're persuing the digifant II engine management. but you'll have to deal with the distributor and initial timing.. the Distributor holes are different between the 2 blocks. Techtonics tuning makes an adapter.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ABA+digifant+distributor+adapter
ABA wiring isn't any more or less easy than the digifant II.
you can go at 15* or 50* with an automatic, just order the adapter to suit.
some adapters have both sets of holes, this is what I would try.
the 50* requires the diesel specific oil pan, oil pump pickup, engine mounts, and hoses.
the 15* requires a DIY approach on the hoses. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
Last edited by danfromsyr on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12114 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:17 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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The Kennedy kit has holes for both 15 and 50 degrees _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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h00drat Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016 Posts: 881 Location: Hood River
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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Thanks for the responses. It's clear to me now that this may be the first time I mentioned I have an auto
Anyway...
Bell housing - I thought this might be the case. I am planning on using the KEP adapter plate. Glad I don't have to buy both (adapter plate and bell housing)
It sounds like some though needs to go into the throttle cable system.
Digifant II - I am planning on going this direction based on a recommendation from Chris DeLong. Primary reason is ease of wiring. Beyond that, I have the complete DFII setup in the parts car. The 2.0 did not come with an ECU or any wiring.
15*, if I'm not mistaken gives zero chance of fitting under the lid. At least with 50* there's a chance. So I'll probably go that route. _________________ <<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
CHC Top Thread
Engine Conversion Thread (2.0 ABA Swap)
ABA Swap - Image Gallery
Auto Trans Rebuild - Image Gallery |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15143 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:25 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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15* and 50* the inclusion is about the same..
and many of use with TDI or 1.8T at 15* are only 1 inch on our decklids.
any motor 'can' be made to fit..
here's a pic of mom's Eurovan 2.5l I5 under the lid..
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=742401
the whole engine/tranny lowered and moved forward a little.
as for the whole raised decklid or ground clearance debate.
that's like asking which you prefer kicked in the left shin or the right shin..
both answers have compromise and neither is perfect.
I've run with a 50* 1.8Digifant for years with a notched frame to clear the 'counter flow' intake and now run a 1.8T with a 1" raised lid..
one thing I didn't like on the 1.8l digifant head was that the injectors would heat soak in hot days and slow traffic or just parking after a long run on the interstate... boil the gas and have trouble restarting.. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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h00drat Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016 Posts: 881 Location: Hood River
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15143 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:40 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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Ohh those are DIY
though I think that guy in Pharump NV has 15* bars.. but I do not know the fitment.. ie. will it be in the precise place that you need for your engine install.
ie. fore aft and what engine mounting brackets are used..
caveat is he's not necessarily highly regarded and I don't know what/where these are from. nor have I seen any van with these mounts installed.. so some searching and due diligence is required
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1316097 _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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h00drat Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016 Posts: 881 Location: Hood River
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15143 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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left shin
or
right shin
no benefit other than parts..
what parts do you have. do you already have the diesel fitment bits & hoses or are you fine adding the costs of those to the project.. create a quick spreadsheet or accounting notebook for items and see if it's $$$ more one way or the other..
is the 1" inside more valuable than the 2" underneath.
or are you not only willing but able to cut and weld up a notch in the frame by the rear drivers side wheel..
what are you planning or hoping to do for/with the exhaust?
again DIY or factory bolt on(50* diesel)..
where is your time, workshop, and money allowing you to go. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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h00drat Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016 Posts: 881 Location: Hood River
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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danfromsyr wrote: |
what parts do you have. do you already have the diesel fitment bits & hoses or are you fine adding the costs of those to the project.. create a quick spreadsheet or accounting notebook for items and see if it's $$$ more one way or the other..
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I have a spreadsheet, but I don't fully understand how the price would change from one to the other.
50* - buy expensive mounting brackets and hose kit (cost known)
15* - make mounting brackets, and custom hose kit (cost unknown)
This is where I'm at for a 50* swap at the moment. I'm sure there's more
15* would potentially eliminate the hose kit and oil pan, I guess.
danfromsyr wrote: |
is the 1" inside more valuable than the 2" underneath.
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I think I would prefer add 1" inside over losing 2" underneath. If I go 50*, it may be even less than 1" inside though.
danfromsyr wrote: |
or are you not only willing but able to cut and weld up a notch in the frame by the rear drivers side wheel..
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Willing and capable of cutting and welding on the frame if needed. With the auto trans, this would be required for both 15 and 50, no?
danfromsyr wrote: |
what are you planning or hoping to do for/with the exhaust?
again DIY or factory bolt on(50* diesel)..
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Not sure yet. Somebody said that the Fox header might clear the diesel mounts, so I'm going to try this. The Fox header is for the 1.8, so hopefully it's not too restricting for the 2.0 (power loss?).
Downpipe, muffler, etc. will have to be cobbled together. Again, welding won't be an issue.
Are you saying that exhaust from a stock 1.6 diesel will be a direct bolt on? This would be even more restricting than the Fox header, so I'd prefer to go that route.
danfromsyr wrote: |
where is your time, workshop, and money allowing you to go. |
Time - no rush
Workshop - I have fabricating at my disposal
Money - I'd like to keep it under $2k. We'll see how that goes. _________________ <<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
CHC Top Thread
Engine Conversion Thread (2.0 ABA Swap)
ABA Swap - Image Gallery
Auto Trans Rebuild - Image Gallery |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12114 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:12 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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Installing @ 15 degrees means you lose some of the plug n' play aspects of a 50 degree kit using factory or FAS parts. You should be able to use the mounting arms from the Dasher/Quantum inline fours and early B5 1.8t engines, but you'd still need to come up with either a modified WBX crossbar or some way to tie in with the factory diesel bars. I prefer the engine layout of 15 degrees, but the ease of installation of the 50 degree kit. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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h00drat Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016 Posts: 881 Location: Hood River
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:17 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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I think I would prefer to spend the money for the 50 degree "plug n play" vs. attempting to fabricate a bunch of stuff to make it fit at 15.
Between the oil pan, KEP adapter, mounting bars, and hose kit for the 50 degree install, I'm spending like $1,500.
So I guess going 15 degree would potentially save me around $1,000 in hard costs, but cost me an extra 20 hours in man hours. _________________ <<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
CHC Top Thread
Engine Conversion Thread (2.0 ABA Swap)
ABA Swap - Image Gallery
Auto Trans Rebuild - Image Gallery |
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h00drat Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016 Posts: 881 Location: Hood River
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10367 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:29 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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h00drat wrote: |
Sounds fun....
Struggling to really see a benefit to go 15* over 50*. |
These are really old notes I made but some of my thoughts on my 15º ABA swap
https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/enginelidmod
Basically, IMO, on a 2wd Vanagon, if you mount the ABA at 15º just fabricating and dealing with an added 4" high "tub" on engine lid is one big reason not to go that route. Yes I could have mounted the engine lower but since the carrier I made passes under the oil pan.... Hindsight. You'd need to mod the lid no matter what. And if its a metal lid, it becomes even heavier so checking fluids is a bit of a PITA. I like that the engine is more "stock" but as I've found out, that is NO guarantee that its any easier for a mechanic to find their way around the engine. My 15º was my first ever swap. So, overall it's not a great example of a well laid out design. I had to redo some things like reposition the wiring harness due to exhaust heat damaging it. Anyways....
images of what I did to my engine lid
https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/enginelidtubbed
Beware that at 50º the alternator becomes the next highest point on the engine even if you make a custom lower profile intake.
When I did my 15º I'd had little to no fabricating experience and had never worked on a wiring harness, built an exhaust etc. It was a steep learning curve just to make the mounting parts. So if you're in my position in terms of experience, it might take more than 20 hours, all told, to make the mounting parts. That said, things have changed since 2008; theres more info on that swap. Check out the 1.8T swaps.
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10367 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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h00drat wrote: |
Quality German in California .....
Engine Carrier and Engine Brackets
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I don't know how this might affect the automatic transmission engine position etc. but it seems the '83 style is the preferred type.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=82+83+carrier+bar
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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h00drat Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016 Posts: 881 Location: Hood River
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15143 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap Planning |
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Do you have Power steering?
the oem PS pump location will interfer with the PS 50* engine carrier bar
requiring relocating the PS pump with new bracketry and maybe hoses/belt.
or
some have cut/sectioned the engine carrier bar.. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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