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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:24 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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| tristessa wrote: |
| h00drat wrote: |
| Main bearing bolts - I'll see if I can find these at a local hardware store. |
If you strike out there, Fastenal can order them in and they've got a store out your way. Worst case hit me up and I can grab them from Parkrose and ship them over .. now that I'm back from the Bay Area anyway.  |
Thanks for the offer! I was at Fastenal yesterday and they mentioned that they can get them in...so I'll go that route probably.
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:57 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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| h00drat wrote: |
Intermediate shaft - I agree this was probably installed wrong as the timing marks on the sprocket did not match up with the timing marks on the crank pulley. However, the timing mark on the actual distributor was ON when the cam sprocket was at TDC. So the motor would have run fine like this.
My BEST guess is that the outer pulley band, where the timing mark is, somehow spun on the rubber boot, moving it in relation to the inner metal part with the nipple hole.
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| h00drat wrote: |
The part number for my pulley is 037 105 243A.
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The ABA crank pulley has a rubber piece? Shows what I know.....  I can't imagine what would cause the outer pulley to slip. But then people swap parts around. In searching that rubber piece detail, found this post for a G60 (pic heavy)
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6052728-...viewfull=1
In part, it shows the G60 and ABA crank pulley and timing mark differences. However, your part number checks out so....
Not to beat a dead horse, and you probably know this, but IM shaft sprocket position is basically irrelevant. i.e. theoretically, with distributor removed and cam and crank lined up correctly, the IM sprocket could be rotated to any position; as long as the dizzy seats back in, and the rotor is close to the hash mark, within reason, you can then adjust the dizzy so rotor lines up to hash mark. Note: the dizzy locating pins need to be removed to do this.
Neil.
ABA vs G60 crank pulley timing marks
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| h00drat wrote: |
Intermediate shaft - I agree this was probably installed wrong as the timing marks on the sprocket did not match up with the timing marks on the crank pulley. However, the timing mark on the actual distributor was ON when the cam sprocket was at TDC. So the motor would have run fine like this.
My BEST guess is that the outer pulley band, where the timing mark is, somehow spun on the rubber boot, moving it in relation to the inner metal part with the nipple hole.
...... |
| h00drat wrote: |
The part number for my pulley is 037 105 243A.
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The ABA crank pulley has a rubber piece? Shows what I know..... I can't imagine what would cause the outer pulley to slip. But then people swap parts around. In searching that rubber piece detail, found this post for a G60 (pic heavy)
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6052728-...viewfull=1
In part, it shows the G60 and ABA crank pulley and timing mark differences. However, your part number checks out so....
Not to beat a dead horse, and you probably know this, but IM shaft sprocket position is basically irrelevant. i.e. theoretically, with distributor removed and cam and crank lined up correctly, the IM sprocket could be rotated to any position; as long as the dizzy seats back in, and the rotor is close to the hash mark, within reason, you can then adjust the dizzy so rotor lines up to hash mark. Note: the dizzy locating pins need to be removed to do this.
Neil.
ABA vs G60 crank pulley timing marks
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Yeah, this is a bizarro mystery for sure.
Yeah, we're on the same page re: intermediate shaft position. I'll probably try to line up the timing mark on the sprocket with SOMETHING when I put it back together, for future reference.
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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h00drat
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:25 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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Prepare for a long update...
I finally started cracking into the bottom end last night. Here is what I found...
First - it appears I have one of the few OBD1 ABA's that did not have oil squirters. This is a bummer, but there's nothing I can do about it. So the show goes on.
It also looks like I need to get the flexplate and main seal off before I can fully remove the crank, which unfortunately means removing the block from the stand. This will be a PITA, but oh well.
You can see on the pistons where they were rubbing on the cylinders. Somebody on here suggested wet sanding them and calling it good. Is this a viable solution, or do they need to be replaced? My wallet is saying wet sand 
#1
#2
#3
#4
The collection
Neil, you asked about the thrust washers. Here are pictures. The grooves are facing the crank (outward). Hopefully the pictures are what you are after.
Bentley should be here soon to help me put it back together. Most pressing questions...
1. Are the pistons usable?
2. I got an 83mm flex hone. My research says the pistons are 82.5. I'm assuming I got the right size Flex Hone.
3. The rod bolts appears to be pressed in. Do I need to have a machine shop press them out? I sure wish I didn't have to replace these.
4. Intermediate shaft didn't just "slide" out. I'm assuming once I get the crank out it will become obvious to me how to remove the IM shaft. Bentley will come in handy here too, so not stressing over it.
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10379
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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| h00drat wrote: |
Prepare for a long update...
First - it appears I have one of the few OBD1 ABA's that did not have oil squirters. This is a bummer, but there's nothing I can do about it. So the show goes on.
It also looks like I need to get the flexplate and main seal off before I can fully remove the crank, which unfortunately means removing the block from the stand. This will be a PITA, but oh well.
Neil, you asked about the thrust washers. Here are pictures. The grooves are facing the crank (outward). Hopefully the pictures are what you are after.
Bentley should be here soon to help me put it back together. Most pressing questions...
1. Are the pistons usable?
.....
3. The rod bolts appears to be pressed in. Do I need to have a machine shop press them out? I sure wish I didn't have to replace these.
4. Intermediate shaft didn't just "slide" out. I'm assuming once I get the crank out it will become obvious to me how to remove the IM shaft. Bentley will come in handy here too, so not stressing over it. |
Thanks for the images of the thrust washers!
As you're doing, no worries re lack of oil squirters. Many ABA have run w/o them some of those in weighted down Westies.
I'd think the chain technique Dan showed would work to hold flex plate? Replace the paper gasket on seal carrier, don't over torque bolts on it especially bolts at pan to seal carrier.
1. Guy I got my ABA from said it had ~ 180K miles on it but either it had more or oil wasn't changed enough. If I recall, my pistons measured slightly out of spec. I replaced them partly due to suggestion of machine shop tech. There should be wear limit specs shown in the manual you linked to. If replacing pistons, follow procedure for wrist pin removal-install. You don't want to mess up the (bronze?) bushing in the rod in any way. This was one potential stumbling block on my rebuild. Though it rotated, one piston wrist pin was slightly tight to a rod bushing.
[edit] I think you were planning on trying to increase HP on this engine? This is just a *somewhat* educated guess but even if pistons measured at low end of spec limit, that potential HP increase by itself would mean new pistons/rings to me. [end edit]
3. Bolts are a press fit but you should be able to remove them yourself. I can't recall if I used a bench vise to press them out but I for sure used a bench vise, socket or piece of tube to press the new bolts in. Support and line up work correctly.
4. I'm assuming the distributor is removed. It could be a little "suction" to oil between the IM shaft bushing and IM at flywheel end of block. Also, that end of the IM shaft is only a mm smaller than end at outer bushing.
for point of reference, one of my pistons.
IM shaft
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
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Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Thanks for the images of the thrust washers!
As you're doing, no worries re lack of oil squirters. Many ABA have run w/o them some of those in weighted down Westies.
I'd think the chain technique Dan showed would work to hold flex plate? Replace the paper gasket on seal carrier, don't over torque bolts on it especially bolts at pan to seal carrier.
1. Guy I got my ABA from said it had ~ 180K miles on it but either it had more or oil wasn't changed enough. If I recall, my pistons measured slightly out of spec. I replaced them partly due to suggestion of machine shop tech. There should be wear limit specs shown in the manual you linked to. If replacing pistons, follow procedure for wrist pin removal-install. You don't want to mess up the (bronze?) bushing in the rod in any way. This was one potential stumbling block on my rebuild. Though it rotated, one piston wrist pin was slightly tight to a rod bushing.
[edit] I think you were planning on trying to increase HP on this engine? This is just a *somewhat* educated guess but even if pistons measured at low end of spec limit, that potential HP increase by itself would mean new pistons/rings to me. [end edit]
3. Bolts are a press fit but you should be able to remove them yourself. I can't recall if I used a bench vise to press them out but I for sure used a bench vise, socket or piece of tube to press the new bolts in. Support and line up work correctly.
4. I'm assuming the distributor is removed. It could be a little "suction" to oil between the IM shaft bushing and IM at flywheel end of block. Also, that end of the IM shaft is only a mm smaller than end at outer bushing.
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Good stuff. Thanks for the reply!
Flexplate - yes, the same technique I used to get the crank bolt off should work...my only concern is lack of space between the flexplate and the engine stand. Not a lot of room to work, but I'll try.
1. I will start by measuring the pistons and cylinders. Etc.
2. New pistons may be the way to go, as yes, I am working with a 269 cam and chipped ECU. Shooting for the 130hp range. I'll price out pistons through Halsey as TTT's prices are NUTS.
3. OK
4. Yeah, dist is out. I'll try again. I didn't want to break anything so I didn't try too hard.
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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Vanagon Nut
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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I'm trying to recall if theres a relevant detail I'm missing here but as you can likely see, the IM shaft passes through holes in the block so that could hang up the part but if it hasn't even budged loose from block yet, humph.  < shrugs >
If you search here on diesel Vanagon IM shaft and bushing posts, there should be images showing details on that shaft and bushings. The parts are very similar between the engines.
TTT has good prices but there are options. e.g. rockauto.com
$176 Cnd but the warranty would suggest you really might "get what you pay for".
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/volkswagen,1994...+kit,14008
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4811721&cc=1283723&jsn=430&jsn=430
Neil.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
I'm trying to recall if theres a relevant detail I'm missing here but as you can likely see, the IM shaft passes through holes in the block so that could hang up the part but if it hasn't even budged loose from block yet, humph. < shrugs >
If you search here on diesel Vanagon IM shaft and bushing posts, there should be images showing details on that shaft and bushings. The parts are very similar between the engines.
TTT has good prices but there are options. e.g. rockauto.com
$176 Cnd but the warranty would suggest you really might "get what you pay for".
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/volkswagen,1994...+kit,14008
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4811721&cc=1283723&jsn=430&jsn=430
Neil. |
I saw some more "affordable" piston options...but those make me nervous too. Definitely don't want to spend $300+ on a piston set from TTT. I guess we'll see what the numbers say about my pistons 
I'm going to spend some time cleaning up and inspecting the pistons tonight.
In the mean time, here are some better pictures of the cylinders. Honestly, I think they LOOK worse than they are. Running a fingernail over them, I can hardly feel any noticeable change in the surface. It's interesting to me that all of the wear is on the same side of the cylinder. None on the other side. Measuring and replacing crank shaft bearings will hopefully keep this from happening again as I imagine crank shaft play, and dirty oil likely led to this result.
Really hard to get a good picture of the inside of a cylinder.
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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Vanagon Nut
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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I don't know enough about engine building to say what this might indicate and I hope the observation isn't misleading, but wear at piston, and part of top ring seem to coincide with wear at cylinder. Given what look like recently honed cylinders, the wear pattern of rings and bores might indicate newer parts breaking in to each other ?? (newer rings, used pistons, honed bores ??). My guess is that the shiny sections of rings are on or near same side of piston skirt that shows more wear and those ring sections coincide with marks at bores.
In terms of normal wear patterns, e.g. at piston skirts, I'd think that the power stroke would tend to "force" the piston toward one side of bore more than the other. The way I envision things, the rod goes down "at an angle" (follows crank lobe/journal offset angle) while the rod bushing/wrist pin allows rotation. If that makes sense.
I have no idea which piston image goes with which bore image but to show what I mean:
#3
# ?
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h00drat
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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Yes, you are definitely right. The scores on the piston definitely coincide with the marks on the cylinder.
You could also very well be right about parts. Given some of the weird business I have discovered, like timing marks being off, and what appears to be a brand new timing belt, it would not surprise me one bit if this motor was a part not too long ago.
Perhaps the cylinders were honed recently giving them the "smooth" feeling, but leaving behind the discoloration? Getting a caliper on the cylinders might tell me.
Once I get the pistons cleaned up I may learn more about what may or may not have been replaced (i.e. rings)...but for now, it's all speculations. Maybe the numbers will tell another story.
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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h00drat
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Vanagon Nut
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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Put flange on a piece of glass, check for warpage with feeler gauges? If its not warped, especially if its a VW part, I'd say re use it. Some aftermarket flanges are not great quality.
Both the "automatic" and "manual" flange has a hole for ECT/gauge and AC sensors. I don't know if the Vanagon AC requires a coolant temp sensor but assuming not, you'll need a bung O-ring and clip or even a spare WBX temp sensor (or other VW temp sensor) with same to plug the extra hole.
Neil.
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h00drat
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Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:20 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Put flange on a piece of glass, check for warpage with feeler gauges? If its not warped, especially if its a VW part, I'd say re use it. Some aftermarket flanges are not great quality. |
Cool, thanks for the tip.
Not much of an update today...except my Bentley should be arriving, so I may be able to put some more time in soon.
Neil. I think you may be right about somebody recently doing the same thing I am doing. The cross hatching in the cylinders look fairly fresh, and the scars on the pistons are quite smooth. Even the worst of them I can't feel to the touch. Not sure if the rings are new, but there is no play in them.
At any rate, I'm going to hone again, and replace the rings, and call it good. Obviously replacing the bearings and everything else in the bottom end we already talked about. Feels weird potentially replacing new parts, but it's just impossible to know what is new and what isn't.
Here are some close up images of one of the pistons after I cleaned it up a bit.
According to the digital manual I was reading, the rod's and rod caps should be marked (1, 2, 3, 4). However I am not seeing marks on them. Unless that's what these two fain black lines are? If they are, I don't think they are all marked...however I marked the pistons myself, so I should be able to get them back in the right order.
I got my used flex plate and adapter plate. I am concerned that it may be missing a stud or two. I am only seeing 2 studs, which feels odds. Thoughts?
Last, a picture from my anniversary weekend in the mountains so that you know I had a good excuse to not be working on my motor
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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tristessa
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:11 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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Use bolts for the uppers. Trust me on this -- if you use studs on the uppers you'll be hating life trying to get nuts seated, especially on the starter.
Been there done that. Hex-socket "allen" bolts are the way to go IMHO, but I don't know the lengths offhand... |
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h00drat
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:43 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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| tristessa wrote: |
Use bolts for the uppers. Trust me on this -- if you use studs on the uppers you'll be hating life trying to get nuts seated, especially on the starter.
Been there done that. Hex-socket "allen" bolts are the way to go IMHO, but I don't know the lengths offhand... |
Sounds like you're saying to go ahead and replace all of the studs with bolts, which I am okay with.
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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tristessa
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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[quote="h00drat"]
| tristessa wrote: |
| Sounds like you're saying to go ahead and replace all of the studs with bolts, which I am okay with. |
Use bolts on the upper adapter-to-transaxle position; studs with nuts on the lower is what the transaxle bellhousing is designed to accept in that place so keep those.
Not sure about WBX Vanagon but Bus and air-cooled Vanagon are designed for a D-head bolt on the upper P/S location (upper starter bolt) coming rearward from the transaxle with a nut on the engine side. With a stud coming forward from the engine/adapter in that location, you might be able to start a nut on it with your fingers but in my experience there's no way to put a socket or wrench on to tighten it. Upper D/S location has the clutch cable arm (bus) / clutch slave (Vanagon) in the way of easy access. |
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h00drat
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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[quote="tristessa"]
| h00drat wrote: |
| tristessa wrote: |
| Sounds like you're saying to go ahead and replace all of the studs with bolts, which I am okay with. |
Use bolts on the upper adapter-to-transaxle position; studs with nuts on the lower is what the transaxle bellhousing is designed to accept in that place so keep those.
Not sure about WBX Vanagon but Bus and air-cooled Vanagon are designed for a D-head bolt on the upper P/S location (upper starter bolt) coming rearward from the transaxle with a nut on the engine side. With a stud coming forward from the engine/adapter in that location, you might be able to start a nut on it with your fingers but in my experience there's no way to put a socket or wrench on to tighten it. Upper D/S location has the clutch cable arm (bus) / clutch slave (Vanagon) in the way of easy access. |
Gotcha. I'll have to see what it all looks like when I get it apart. I'm not even sure which direction this adapter plate goes. I'm sure it will make sense when things are less assembled.
I currently have a TDI starter with adapter on my WBX. I'm assuming this will still work, but it's worth nothing that it came with new longer bolts, something may have changed there as well.
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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Vanagon Nut
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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| h00drat wrote: |
Neil. I think you may be right about somebody recently doing the same thing I am doing. The cross hatching in the cylinders look fairly fresh, and the scars on the pistons are quite smooth. Even the worst of them I can't feel to the touch. Not sure if the rings are new, but there is no play in them.
At any rate, I'm going to hone again, and replace the rings, and call it good. Obviously replacing the bearings and everything else in the bottom end we already talked about. Feels weird potentially replacing new parts, but it's just impossible to know what is new and what isn't.
According to the digital manual I was reading, the rod's and rod caps should be marked (1, 2, 3, 4). However I am not seeing marks on them. Unless that's what these two fain black lines are? If they are, I don't think they are all marked...however I marked the pistons myself, so I should be able to get them back in the right order.
Last, a picture from my anniversary weekend in the mountains so that you know I had a good excuse to not be working on my motor
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I see ski season has started? Nice shot.
Just one point of reference but I think your pistons look like they have a lot less wear than mine did. You plan sounds good IMLO. FWIW, I found that an inexpensive generic ring tool worked fine.
If its still possible, mark a number on each rod and rod cap; don't mix them up.
Arrow on piston points to pulley end of engine. Bosses (raised marks) on each rod and rod cap should line up and those bosses face towards pulley end of engine. I didn't find that detail in the A3 Bentley. Found it in my Fox Bentley IIRC. These specs are for a different vw 8v but rod/rod cap position is same:
Lisle brand
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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h00drat
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Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
I see ski season has started? Nice shot.
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Ski season started a few weeks ago, but it's been a slow start.
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
If its still possible, mark a number on each rod and rod cap; don't mix them up.
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I made sure to lay the caps out in order, and I marked the rods 1 - 4...so I think I'll be good here.
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Arrow on piston points to pulley end of engine. Bosses (raised marks) on each rod and rod cap should line up and those bosses face towards pulley end of engine. I didn't find that detail in the A3 Bentley. Found it in my Fox Bentley IIRC. These specs are for a different vw 8v but rod/rod cap position is same:
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Is the pulley end of the engine considered the "front"? Things are backwards in my head based on how the motor will sit in the van. If that's the case, then yes, we're on the same page (arrows and raised marks on rods will point towards the pulley end of the motor, not towards the flexplate).
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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Vanagon Nut
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 ABA Swap |
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| h00drat wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Arrow on piston points to pulley end of engine. Bosses (raised marks) on each rod and rod cap should line up and those bosses face towards pulley end of engine. .....
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Is the pulley end of the engine considered the "front"? Things are backwards in my head based on how the motor will sit in the van. If that's the case, then yes, we're on the same page (arrows and raised marks on rods will point towards the pulley end of the motor, not towards the flexplate). |
ya I know what you mean. And, in a Jetta/Golf it would've been transverse.... Well, pulley end is not flex plate end so.... JK. Yes. Your description of rod/piston orientation is correct.
Sounds like you're being organized and particular which are obviously good things for this type of work. If anyone here saw my work bench right now I'd be "fired". 
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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