Is it worth getting used original heads?

[furgo]

I came across a pair of used original heads at a very reasonable price. Visually, they look ok: no cracks, valves seem not to have wandered. But with online parts, you never actually know until you actually get hold of them.

I do not need them at the moment, but I know at some point the engine (over 130K miles) will need to be rebuilt. I generally like to think forward and learn more about the options in advance. Plus the fact that where I live it's rare to find Type 4 parts, let alone the right VW heads that match your engine.

This is an area where I don't have much experience, hence the basic question.

From my understanding, these days one of the options when heads need replacement is to get new AMC heads (I know there are some other brands, but these seem to be quite common). Their quality is inferior to that of the originals, so folks who want a longer lasting engine tend to get them reworked by a pro before installing them.

Used heads most probably need rework, so in the end, the difference in cost comes probably from the part itself only (i.e. less upfront cost), but depending on how extensive the rework is, there might even be not much of a significant difference in the overall cost in the end. Used heats have also seen more miles and thus the metal has been much more stressed due to the higher number of heat cycles.

That bears the question of whether the quality of used heads vs. new is so much better than it beats the fact that they have indeed being used (and probably abused) for years.

On the other hand, another option, given that the price of these used original ones is low, would be to get some used ones as roadside repair spare ones in case something goes awfully wrong in a long trip. I've heard of no one actually carrying spare heads in the bus "just in case", though!
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[mygreenbus]

I have been told by several head rebuilders that if you can’t afford a set of the new expensive heads you can’t go wrong with an original set given they are rebuildable. My rebuildable set just arrived!
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'72 Bus

[Abscate]

We just had a thread on people carrying spare engines around...
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.ssS!

[Wildthings]

My 1800 heads had somewhere around 650K kilometers on them when they failed and the only work they had had was getting the guides replaced once. I am pretty anal about keeping my engine well tuned though and was running a slightly upgraded cam for most of those miles.

[orwell84]

I think the rarity of type 4 parts tends to be overstated. Finding decent parts takes time and can be trial and error. I think is a bigger issue if you are on a tight timeline and budget. I worked with a machinist on checking parts and having him do the work that he could. To his credit, he admitted that the heads were beyond what he was equipped to do. Heads were where I spent most of the money on my rebuild and I feel it was money well spent. In my experience, heads are where I have had the most problems with my engine. I bought new heads from Len Hoffman and have been very happy with them. In the time/money equation it made the most sense to me. I don't have time to endlessly pull my engine apart or dick around playing show and tell with my old heads or shipping across the country wondering if the person looking at them knows what they are talking about. If you have a good rebuilder then I would go for trying used heads if that is what works best for you.

[raygreenwood]

Yes.....you can use them. The question is,really....should you?....as others are alluding to.

My rule anymore....at this late point in time.....meaning depending on part # they could be on average as much 49 years old if they are 1.7L.....43 years old if they are 1.8 and 40 years old if they are a 2.0.
My rule is....if you cannot get a REAL history on them....its hard to know how much they have left in them.....then dont use them.

The only heads I trust to rebuild anymore really are heads that come from 1.7L or 1.8L from a 411, 412 or 914.....that are known to come from these lighter cars and engines that have not died violently, been overheated chronically or have been obviously rebuilt in a sketchy manner.
Those parts are few and far between.....and still a gamble. You pretty much have to run across an owner you know who has had the car or engine for a long time and knows the history.
All of that said.....what Wildthings is pointing out is true.....the design and materials can run for 300-400k miles.....if the engine is tuned, maintained and well treated. That gets to my point of how do you know?

You CAN make them virtually new.....but it takes enough work and money that if you get halfway through and find a show stopping flaw.....the time and money so far is now wasted.

But I do believe in rebuilding stock heads to use on stock engines whenever you can afford to.
The heads really at this age.....should be crack tested, have new good quality valves, valve seats, springs, keepers, retainers .....and if you know they have a lot of miles but they show no cracks yet and you know a good well equipped head machine shop.....pull the studs and seats and have the head annealed to re-set the temper/malleability of the metal before putting in new seats. Have the cylinder seats skimmed and new guides put in.
Ray

[Amskeptic]

[SGKent]

crap shoot. If you found a set of low miles original heads they would probably be on a low miles engine. That is a rarity and it would not be disassembled. More likely a set of heads is either high miles and they are a risk to run, or they are already rebuilt ~ and without knowing who the builder was you would have no way of knowing what the reliability is. I can make heads look pretty and like new, but I can't change the temper loss in the aluminum after 10,000 heat cycles, and the unequal heating. These are not temperature controlled water cooled heads. They are air cooled heads that sometimes see 150F on one part and 500 F on another part of the head. That stresses heads after a while. But yes, they can be rebuilt once or twice with good results but not, like new results unless they are low mile heads - which is rare.

The weak spots on late bay engines tends to be the FI wiring and relays, the EGR that leaks, the vacuum leaks, and the heads. Of all the weak spots, it is the heads that can cause a catastrophic failure. I would use them only for a budget rebuild. The factory never designed them to last 200,000 miles. A typical rebuild back in the day was maybe 50,000 miles then replace them at 100,000 when rebuilding the engine. Type 1 heads were rebuilt at 40,000 and replaced at 80,000. Those numbers are from experience.

Last - finding a low miles used T1 SP head is not as hard. One reason is that there were many more T1 heads than T4 heads. A common practice, especially on T1 engines it to try to make more HP. Someone might stick a set of new heads on a SP engine and 12,000 miles later decide to turn it into a dual port engine or maybe the car got wrecked and the engine went into a dune buggy. The engine then got rebuilt into a dual port engine with dual carbs. The old heads went into the garage and now 25 years later someone is cleaning the garage out. Or their bug gets wrecked, rusts out etc., so they stick all the spare parts into it and take it to the VW wrecking yard who pays them $100 for scrap. The heads, sitting on a garage shelf for 25 years are now sitting in the wrecking yard show case with a price tag on them. Not so common with genuine DP or T4 heads.
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[raygreenwood]

[airschooled]

I found some low-mileage heads four years ago and had Adrian re-work them. (Type 1, but the anecdote remains applicable...) Valve adjustments are always stable, and the rocker area still looks new, now at 60k miles on them. However, what you can't get on the internet is a good idea of the spark plug threads' conditions. Every plug I've ever put into my 3/4 cylinder head wants to cross-thread, and always comes out feeling gritty too. (The 1/2 side feels normal, and did from day 1...) This bit me about 20k miles ago when I stripped the #3 plug threads and had to install a threaded insert. Damn was that nerve-wracking work...

When the engine was new, Colin was walking through my first ever compression test and I remember him wincing as I installed the #3 plug with a 1/2" ratchet because it would NOT thread by hand.

Robbie
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[Hoody]

In my opinion no. Just buck up and get a set of new heads from Len Hoffman.

[Greg in GA]

[furgo]

Perfect, thanks everyone for the wealth of info, pros and cons. I've certainly learned a lot in this thread.
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[airschooled]

[thesatanicmechanic]

I am not brave enough to trust a sight unseen used pair of square port heads.

I'll gamble on some 1.7 heads though, and anything from a 914. They didn't have to do barely any work compared to a late bay bus.

I agree with everyone else's assessment of Len's reworked AMC heads, they are better than you could ever wish for. I've held them in my hands, installed them on a customers engine, and cannot find fault with any aspect.

People get hung up on the price, don't.

[orangebug60guy]

Just had a set of 1700cc heads rebuilt from FAT Performance in CA for the Tub Bus. These were 1700cc heads but they are machined to 1800cc for the application we need. Time will tell how well they work out.
$700 for rebuilt VW heads
or
$1000 for AMC heads that still need work?

[raygreenwood]

[SGKent]

FAT Performance was sold to RIMCO recently who was moving in with them. I would think the jury is still out whose quality will win.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[orangebug60guy]

[thesatanicmechanic]

Close up of filler weld in air injection port?

Your top cylinder fins are going to touch the head, hard. Heads aren't cut evenly. Spigot boss gone on the bottom, visible on top. Used valves. New valves that are installed aren't SS. Manganese bronze guides are cheap and allow <.005 clearance readily between SS valves.

Original slag/casting yuck in exhaust ports. 40+ year old stamped steel retainers. 51ccs? opened up to 1.8? What is your deck height going to be? .080? Running a 13mm dish?

pop a valve out and have a look. Bet you got what you paid for.