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Idler Arm bolt
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Drew, 1973 412
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:19 am    Post subject: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Help!
The flange bolt on my 73' 412 SW, that goes through the idler arm bracket and, the bushing has stripped.
Does anyone know where I can get a replacement, or at least the specs of the Bolt?
Thank you friends. Rolling Eyes
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Drew, 1973 412 wrote:
Help!
The flange bolt on my 73' 412 SW, that goes through the idler arm bracket and, the bushing has stripped.
Does anyone know where I can get a replacement, or at least the specs of the Bolt?
Thank you friends. Rolling Eyes


Is that the big bolt that connects the arm to the bracket? How badly is it stripped? Do yo just mean cross threaded? Thats fixable.

The part # is 411 417 317. I may have a spare or two but cannot get to them until late next week. Because the type 1 super beetle uses the same idler arm bushing....its highly possible that the super beetle bolt will work. It will fit the bushing. The question is whether the threaded section is long enough.

The bolt aside for the moment....if you have not done the bronze idler arm bushing....you NEED to.

Some info here
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=607049&highlight=idler+arm

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=621850&highlight=idler+arm

Ray
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Drew, 1973 412
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

[quote="raygreenwood"]
Drew, 1973 412 wrote:
Help!
The flange bolt on my 73' 412 SW, that goes through the idler arm bracket and, the bushing has stripped.
Does anyone know where I can get a replacement, or at least the specs of the Bolt?
Thank you friends. Rolling Eyes




Hi Ray,

Yes, it is that bolt. Well, I cut the bolt off, even though I knew I was entering a danger zone, leading to me again trying to find yet another unique 412 part.
Luckily, the PO had made a custom bushing out of Delrin, about 10 years ago, and it is holding great. Thanks' for the posts you referenced, they help. I would be grateful to buy a bolt from you if you find one.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

[quote="Drew, 1973 412"]
raygreenwood wrote:
Drew, 1973 412 wrote:
Help!
The flange bolt on my 73' 412 SW, that goes through the idler arm bracket and, the bushing has stripped.
Does anyone know where I can get a replacement, or at least the specs of the Bolt?
Thank you friends. Rolling Eyes




Hi Ray,

Yes, it is that bolt. Well, I cut the bolt off, even though I knew I was entering a danger zone, leading to me again trying to find yet another unique 412 part.
Luckily, the PO had made a custom bushing out of Delrin, about 10 years ago, and it is holding great. Thanks' for the posts you referenced, they help. I would be grateful to buy a bolt from you if you find one.


You cut the bolt off? Why?


Also...dump the delrin. As good as Delrin is....is nowhere near what this part needs. My control arm bushings are delrin... and its perfsct for those. The leverage at the lower flange of the bushing is about 10X what the control arms have

Spend the $40 and get the bronze part. There is a HUGE reason the factory went to it in the super beetle in 1978. The idler bushing has force on it in three axes. I can guarantee it flexes and will sooner ir later break the delrin.

If you need a bolt I can dig one out this week.
Ray
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Drew, 1973 412
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

I thought that Delrin was the be all end all for an idler arm bushing, and I am glad to be corrected. I've got a bronze bushing on the way and can't wait to get my 412 back on the road. I was messing with the idler arm because with all the other work I did on the suspension, I still had a shimmy. This explains why, the Delrin and not bronze, and the bolts inability to be properly tightened.

Not through lack of trying, I have not yet found a replacement bolt. If you send me a PM I'll give you my address and such.

Thank you Ray,
Drew
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Drew, 1973 412 wrote:
I thought that Delrin was the be all end all for an idler arm bushing, and I am glad to be corrected. I've got a bronze bushing on the way and can't wait to get my 412 back on the road. I was messing with the idler arm because with all the other work I did on the suspension, I still had a shimmy. This explains why, the Delrin and not bronze, and the bolts inability to be properly tightened.

Not through lack of trying, I have not yet found a replacement bolt. If you send me a PM I'll give you my address and such.

Thank you Ray,
Drew


Tell us about your front suspension. The shimmy is caused by literally a "stack up" of items. Fixing one thing or another can reduce it.....but if you do not get all of the items.....it will rapdily wear out,the parts you just replaced.

Delrin is superb for the control arm bushings....but not the idler arm bushing. Different load and flex. Ray
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Drew, 1973 412
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:00 am    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Great question and where to start. The PO put a SB front McPherson setup, but at some point the replaced that struts with ones that smashed up under the hood. So, I replaced the struts with the Audi set, and the back with the F150 option. I also used the Mazda strut bearings in the front. I am the proud owner of 6 sets of 412 ball joints, my best 2 are on the car. I replaced the center-link with one from Rock auto? The PO replaced the centering ring and radius arms with Delrin. I also replaced the steering damper.

The tires have be balanced, and I spoke to them about splitting over an Oz to each side.
I need to find a shop that will adjust the caster, to 3 degrees, I'm not sure if I can do that.

Thanks',
Drew
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Drew, 1973 412 wrote:
Great question and where to start. The PO put a SB front McPherson setup, but at some point the replaced that struts with ones that smashed up under the hood. So, I replaced the struts with the Audi set, and the back with the F150 option. I also used the Mazda strut bearings in the front. I am the proud owner of 6 sets of 412 ball joints, my best 2 are on the car. I replaced the center-link with one from Rock auto? The PO replaced the centering ring and radius arms with Delrin. I also replaced the steering damper.

The tires have be balanced, and I spoke to them about splitting over an Oz to each side.
I need to find a shop that will adjust the caster, to 3 degrees, I'm not sure if I can do that.

Thanks',
Drew


Excellent!
Might we ask who you got the car from? There was someone a while back tinkering with front strut replacement who smacked his hood with the strut rods......I warned him....and I knew from experience.....cause I did it myself many years ago!

Question.....you note that centering rings and radius arm wiere replaced with Delrin?

The centering rings....meaning the little grommet like rings between the donuts on the radius arm....are perfect for Delrin. Its what I made mine from.
However.....making the donuts themselves from delrin.....is dangerous. That will literally either shatter the delrin eventually....but usually it ALWAYS ends up cracking the eye in tge subframe.

I did that twice just using urethane bushings there. Wasted two subframes. That part does not weld easily.

As far as ball joints......did you add a grease fitting and gaskets? You need to. Great mod. The ball joints can last for a very long time.....but not without grease fittings. I bave a line on cheap boots that work well I will post later.

The centerlink....good for now. Take your old one and rebuild it. The NOS ones are only good to about 30k or so.

Ok.....the castor angle.

There is no way in the car to add any extra castor. It is set up to be adjustable to allow splitting what castor there is.....exactly yo boith sides of the car. The captive nuts inside of the car body that the subframe boots go into.....ride in slots....so that when you loosen the bolts on the subframe.....the subframe pivots on the rear bolt and slides side to side in the front.

If you look closely at the forward T section of the subframe.....just forward of each side bolt.....you will see a peculier hole or slot opening...about 1/2" wide and 1/4" high. These slots are to put a prybar in so they can slew the subframe from side to side during alignment.

The problem is that when you slew the subframe to one side to split the castor equally.....it can throw off the camber adjustment. And there is no adjustment for that either.

So.....to install the adjustment.....you need to take the subframe out and have the front two bolt holes slotted toward the rear. This allows the subframe to slide FORWARD....which increase castor.....and oddly....the captive nut for the rear subframe mount bolt....is slotted in the fore/aft direction.....which is perfect....and oddly already set up for this adjustment. I have no idea why the factory did not complete the work.

You do not have to go as far as I did and core out the whole steel tube insert on each front bolt of the subframe and weld in a new one....it was just the easiest way to do it at home.....if you take it to a machine shop.....in a matter of minutes that can slot each hole with a roughing end mill...about 1/4" towards the rear.....and your castor adjustment is complete.

You should then add the slots to the control arm yokes and add eccentric adjuster bolts....and now you have camber adjustment too.
Ray
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Drew, 1973 412
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Great information Ray. I also looked back at other post here and in STF and with this post, I have my winter work cutout for me.
Thanks',
Drew
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Hello,
I'm a little slow, but here is the PO of my 412, herr_sparky, who also went by agent chicken-wing. I took some photos off of his Photoshop account of the same 412 that I now have had for about 2 years. The link is: http://s221.photobucket.com/user/herr_sparky/library/412?sort=6&page=1


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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Ah! Yes!...Herr Sparky! Julie Aleva's car...RIP Julie.

Yes Julie was just starting to work on it when she died and it was taken over and being fairly well done.

However....some of the innovations about exactly how to do things right on the front end were still up in the air at the time. Super beetle struts...may work decently of taken complete.....but everything else needs to be done specific for the type 4 car.

That car has great history. Let us know what you need!
Ray
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Drew, 1973 412
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Wow! I researched her, and what a good person with a lot of love for others and air cooled VW's. I feel very lucky.

By the way, I have spent more time working on the front suspension than any other part of the car, including body restoration. I may start over with all new bushings, tie rods, center link etc.

I would like to take out the struts and take a photo of them, how they are attached, and see what you guys think. I have replaced the ball joints with an older pair (best of 3 pairs), brass fitting in the idler arm, Ford shocks, did the Mazda fitting, replaced the inner and outer bearings, all sorts of stuff, but the suspension never felt right.

In other new, the engine is amazing. I have/am replacing wiring here and there, which makes for soother idling and running. AT works great, rear suspension has no problems.

Nice to know some of the history of this car.
Drew
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Bear in mind that with regard to the front struts...its hard to say if there is an actual right or wrong way...but the Audi strut cartridge mod has the best tested and most "factory like" valving ratio.

I have about 100k miles on that mod.

The Mazda strut bearing....is the correct concept....a low friction/high impact plastic thrust bearing set. I installed two sets of them over a period of time. That was a learning period.

The problem with the Mazda bearing is that it was too thick and required a lot of fit changes...some of which can cause tuning issues.

The Ford shocks ....I have read they work....but the benefit was mainly about being the correct length to fit without fabrication....but the valving is not really right. It cannot be with the way the car it came from weight ratio was set up....and multiplied by control arm leverage length.

A lot of this came from 10 years ago or more. We had several people working toward finding a replacement strut cartridge....along several different lines of thinking.

My methodology:
I was looking for a replacement cartridge that had a similar valving RATIO of rebound to compression. I say "similar" because I wanted just a little more rebound control....and overall with a factor of control POWER of 2X over the factory strut.

In other words....in my experience...the factory strut gave a GREAT smooth ride (so the valving was nice)....but was slightly lacking in rebound control as it got up in miles. That was...I found...partly caused by internal seal failure happening in the upper end of the strut cartridge. So...I would not have been unhappy to find basic EXACT replacements for the factory cartridge....and just change them at 40-50k mile intervals.

But that seal failure...was caused by the fact that the factory valving was a little weak on rebound damping force.

However.....along with that...I REALLY wanted a slightly shorter strut rod length to get rid of that damn nose high attitude...which is terrible for proper castor and driving high speed in cross winds. That needed drop is just slightly under 1".

Yes....you CAN shuffle or trim the bump stop spacer to get this tiny but significant drop....but that will cause the strut rod to bang into and dent the trunk hood...been there! So you need to trim the strut rod tip.

But what I really wanted...added with the factory valving and slightly higher rebound....was more damping for better handling.

See.... what people do not realize....is that "valving" does not just affect the ratio of rebound force to compression force.

You can have the same exact valving...meaning the same spring pressures and bypass orifice sizes inside the strut cartridge ...but....coupled with say....a thicker fluid....or fluid/gas....or a larger diameter piston....that also magnifies the power factor or damping ability.

I went through about 50 or so struts looking at all of this after cutting them open. I played with a few by actually buying a couple of cheap sets and installing them. I got lucky with the Audi 4000/VW quantum strut cartridge. I got double lucky that the ones I was looking at in the junkyard just happened to be KYB GR-2. They worked VERY well.

I keep looking back at that period in time and thinking that if I had happened to try the same cartridges in some oil or high pressure gas versions....I may have walked on by them and may have never found something else that worked that well.

Bill K's methodology:

Bill was looking for more high performance from the start...although the Audi strut mod I outline is already a serious performance upgrade....he was looking for a lot more lowering drop....and was a smart guy. He knew that if you are going to have a serious front end drop...a few inches...you need to modify the rear...and everything. I think he used the same Audi strut cartridge for teh valving and power....but without an adapter stub...and used BMW springs as a lowering spring and Volvo K70's on the rear.

A well designed package.

Others...I cannot remember who....brought out the Ford strut cartridge. I do not know enough about that one.

You should dig through these threads. The handling of the 411/412...an easily be increased by an honest 200% with a great ride quality....but it takes more than just the struts. You need a lot of what you already have....tight tie rod ends, tight radius arm bushings, better strut bushings or at least new ones, the bronze idler bushing....and a rebuilt centerlink.

The double steering damper mod is a GREAT mod.

For me....for the time being....until I can get a definitive solution for a stiffer ball joint....the Audi strut mod is as much damping force as I want to add. the issue with higher performing damper sets like the BMW spring mod...will show up in higher miles. Much harder damping....and the weak springs in the ball joints start taking up the slack...and it hammers the ball joints to death.

Double steering damper mod
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=656691&highlight

Bronze idler bushing
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=621850&highlight=idler+arm

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=618853&highlight=idler+bushing

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=607049&highlight=idler+arm

Centerlink rebuild

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=628219&highlight

Audi strut modification. Not far off I will be redoing this document to make it fit on the forums and get it off my drop box

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=624354&highlight

Ray
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Drew, 1973 412
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Hey Ray,
I did move the front cartridges to the Audi modification. Fun fact, when I opened up the front struts to change the cartridges, someone had been in there before me, because there were steel tubes in the bottom of each insert and some plastic tape around the cartridge. Other odd thing was, the struts I took out were date stamped 1973 or 1972. I think someone made a mod, and replaced the old cartridges.
After I put in the KYB struts in the front, and the Ford 1/2 ton struts in the rear, it was a new car. A friend told me that prior, the 412 looked lake a bucking bronco going down the road. It was with the old shocks that I assume the PO got two nice dents in the hood. Also, I appear to have the SB strut mounts, still on the car, and will be replaced, TY.

I was hoping the instead of rebuilding the center link, I could buy one of the TRW center links on Ebay? Any thoughts?

Thanks' everyone,
Drew



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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Drew, 1973 412 wrote:
Hey Ray,
I did move the front cartridges to the Audi modification. Fun fact, when I opened up the front struts to change the cartridges, someone had been in there before me, because there were steel tubes in the bottom of each insert and some plastic tape around the cartridge. Other odd thing was, the struts I took out were date stamped 1973 or 1972. I think someone made a mod, and replaced the old cartridges.
After I put in the KYB struts in the front, and the Ford 1/2 ton struts in the rear, it was a new car. A friend told me that prior, the 412 looked lake a bucking bronco going down the road. It was with the old shocks that I assume the PO got two nice dents in the hood. Also, I appear to have the SB strut mounts, still on the car, and will be replaced, TY.

I was hoping the instead of rebuilding the center link, I could buy one of the TRW center links on Ebay? Any thoughts?

Thanks' everyone,
Drew




I think I remember this one! I must say this up front.....I don not know everything about 411 and 412. I learn things from other people here and on the STF all the time.

I have been pretty careful to not lay out modification unless I KNOW they work and I have many miles on them. I do not ant to get people into something unexpected or dangerous. Then when I think the modification is ready...I try to put out a comprehensive "how to" to support it.

I also like when someone carefully take what I have learned or designed...and readjusts it...tweaks it...makes it better or makes another use for it.
BUT....in more than a few situations....people have taken a method for something and tweaked it...without testing or thinking about the consequences. I try not to get on anyone's case unless I have literally tried that same tweak an failed.... dangerously.... with it.

If I remember right...what was done here is a "version" of the Audi mod...with some tweaks....and there was a lot of back and forth because there are some things done with yours that I did LONG ago....that are damaging.

Some of that on some of these...5-6 years ago mods...I take the blame for. For a long time I did not have the time or resources to post a lot of pictures or how to articles.
So a lot of the descriptions of how to do this mod were just written. It took me a long time just to post the actual dimensions of the adapter stub...AND....I did not have a 1974 strut to give the differences for that set up.....so a few people moving ahead did some trial and error that I did not agree with in some cases.


A couple of things from your pictures. The super beetle strut mounts are really pretty much the same as the late 412. However...there are some quality differences and bits and pieces differences in the bushing and bearing.

They all fit and work fine....some are new bearings with a bonded on bushing, some are a separate bushing and bearing cone, some are kind of thin and some are kind of thick.

I would not say any of them are bad...just that you can mix and match to get slightly better fit. And...be careful of the fit of the center bearing tube in the ball bearing.

That being said...a big problem with what I see in your pictures...several in fact.... is that the strut bearing plate is on the wrong side of the strut tower. That makes for a very flexible/weak mounting. It should come in from the outside. The nuts and anti-flex plates go against the strut towers from inside the trunk..sandwiching the body between the strut plate and the stiffener plates.

And very importantly...the way it is bolted in now.... holds the bushing plate at the incorrect angle which affects your caster and camber.

Also...though you may have the Audi struts....do you know if it is using a stub adapter on top of the strut...or if its just using the Audi strut cartridge itself?

From memory....which may not totally be correct....

A few things were tried in quick succession:

Check to see if the coil spring has been cut near the top. There should be 8 total coils from 1968 up to July of 1972...with 6.5 of them being effective. That means that almost 3/4 of coil is wrapped around and seated on the strut body perch and 3/4 of a coil is wrapped around and seated at the top plate.

From August 1972 onward...there are 8.5 coils and 7 "effective coils". Same things. So seen from the side....you should see 7 whole coils on late cars.

Here is what your spring should look like

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It looks like your spring has been cut by maybe 1/2 or 1 whole coil. Its also possible...I cannot tell...that possibly the strut body has had the top where the cap screws on ...welded and extended. Maybe not. But if the PO did not use a stub adapter with the Audi strut cartridge....then the only two ways it can work is by extending the strut body....or cutting the coil spring to lower the chassis down.

That becomes a "ratio"problem. The stock springs ...at just under stock height (meaning level car body)....are superb with the Audi struts....but if you need lower ...you need different springs. Cutting coils away...causes them to have less load capacity...and rebound capacity....meaning the strut valving then overpowers the spring rate.

The steel pipe underneath the Audi strut cartridge is correct. Its a shorter strut. The tape wrapped around is also correct. It makes it more stable.

You need to take a look at your springs and get the strut mount sorted out.

Ray
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Drew, 1973 412
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

O.K., I needed to find time to take out the strut, it's my daily driver. Good new is I put about 14 miles a day on the car.

Here is a photo of my strut, coil etc.
I do have the strut on with out an adapter on them, Just the struts. Again, the PO must have either put other struts on at least, for the cratragesI found were original. Another question, the strut cap from another was cut and on the top, inside the trunk, do I need that extra piece or is that just someones invention?

It looks like I have 7 coils...

Also, I found some springs at Recycled Jack, I think they were 100 shipped. Or I can look here for some, if need be.

Thank you. I understand that this is people helping out others, and know that all mods are suggestions, and that there is inherent danger.

Drew




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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Ah!.....got it! You are just fine!.

I cant believe ai couldn't see that from your firat pictures. It looks like the strut and spring assembly is pretty normal. The extra "flange" on the top on the inside of the trunk is used to strengthen the bolt pattern on the strut tower because you had the earlier symmetrival 120° spacing strut mount compared to the late assymetrical pattern you have now and the PO bad to widen the center hole and drill new holes.

While the use of that flange that way is not pretty....it works. The question is....what caryridge does it have inside. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 11:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

Hey,
I think I have KYB 365008 GR-2 / Excel-G, but, id did not follow the first rule, and never kept a log of what I have been doing.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Ah! Yes!...Herr Sparky! Julie Aleva's car...RIP Julie.

Yes Julie was just starting to work on it when she died and it was taken over and being fairly well done.

However....some of the innovations about exactly how to do things right on the front end were still up in the air at the time. Super beetle struts...may work decently of taken complete.....but everything else needs to be done specific for the type 4 car.

That car has great history. Let us know what you need!
Ray


I just came across this post here....
this car is NOT Julie Aleva's famous 1974 412 Sparkie! I have owned Sparkie since 2005. Julie's father bought her the car for her 18th birthday in 1989 and it took Julie ten years to restore it. She drove the car to shows all over the west through 2003 before passing away in November 2004. Her father inherited Sparkie back from his only child and then contacted me about taking Sparkie home, per Julie's notes in her journal.
Sparkie was show quality when I brought her home in April 2005 and remains so.
Here is a picture of Julie and me the day we - and our 412s - met in Seattle in 2003. I still have both cars and both are in excellent condition and garage-kept.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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ubercrap
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Joined: July 01, 2004
Posts: 1060
Location: Ridley Park, PA
ubercrap is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Idler Arm bolt Reply with quote

I would say that it could be dangerous to have the strut mount on top of the tower like that- you're depending on the strength of the bolts instead of the whole body/strut tower structure to support the car. I would advise never to have it like that again for sure!
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'74 412 wagon
(2) '74 412 2dr. sedan
'73 412 2dr. sedan
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