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how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel?
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pjstock
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

bear with me. I am just starting down the slippery slope of T3 research and acquisition.
and I am sure this question has been asked hundreds of times, but I haven't found the answer yet.
I am not a terribly mechanical guy. Engine replacement will be well beyond me for a long long time. So, I would like to start off with a T3 with a decent engine and not plunge straight into slow speeds and then feel like I need to replace the engine (if that is what one has to do these days, I'll start off looking for a T3 with a dead engine.)

Was looking at a european (imported from) T3 with "1.6L Turbo diesel with Intercooler.".
when I called the mechanic who has been maintaining this unit and asked him if a 1.6L engine was underpowered, he hesitated and then said, "well, yea, pretty much. I mean you can do 85-90kph OK but you'll have to go uphill in first. and not very fast."

fast forward to another (also european) T3 I inquired about, when I asked the seller if that 1.6L engine was underpowered he replied "Heck no!" that his 1.6 was "rebuilt" by a certain engine maestro and could "Cruise down the highway at a comfortable 110 kph all day including hills"

When I told him Story #1 (85-90kph) he said "well, that's because THAT 1.6 wasn't rebuilt by this guy"

so, who to believe?
is a 1.6L diesel adequate or basically undepowered for this day and age.?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

A 1.6 turbo shouldn't be slow, but a 1.6 naturally aspirated is definitely slow; dangerously slow in a modern context. I've owned one and would not recommend them in any part of the country that has hilly territory. They are an excellent base unit for powerplant upgrades to higher output VW gas and diesel engines.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

Depends on your elevation. At sea level, a good condition stock diesel engine runs pretty good... if its in a tintop with no passengers. Higher elevations, heavier vans and hilly country really tax the engine. They wear out pretty fast too, 100k miles is about the limit, because they work so hard. Still, its very economical and if you don't live in a big city the slow speed is tolerable if not rustic.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

I do not believe there is anything especially innovative that can be done to a 1.6NA that would allow it to “cruise at 110 kph all day” without soon wearing it out.

You don’t mention whether you are looking at tintop Vanagons or the heavier Campers, but both the previous owner and I babied the 1.6NA diesel in my current Vanagon Westfalia (with 5-speed transmission), and it was thoroughly worn out at about 110,000 miles (175,000 km). Though we made several long-distance cross-country road trips with that engine, it was definitely underpowered for freeway driving, esp. in the mountains.

That said, if you are willing to drive with lowered expectations for awhile, the diesel Vanagons can rather easily be upgraded to larger and/or turbo-charged diesel engines to provide more power.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

we are aiming for a Hightop version.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

Any 30 year old vehicle is going to need an engine at some point. Ours was a 1.6 diesel. When the time came we upgraded it. Looking at a used vanagon, I would be more concerned about how solid it is, not what powers it. There is no cheap way to get into long time ownership. If you are not into it for the long haul and willing to spend as necessary, you may want to reconsider the entire idea. If we had to pay someone to maintain ours, we could not afford it. Good luck with the search. Diesels are not for everyone.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

hello from germany.

a 1.6 diesel (CS, 50ps) is slow.
it has very short gearbox 3800 oder 4000 [email protected]/h (62mph)
->slow accelaration
->when country is flat you could drive 90-100km/h but the diesel engine runs on very high rpm
->when you have a hill it gets much slow.
->the engine has only litte torque of 100nm (73,5ft lb)
--->with a longer gearbox (3h, ass ---->5gear boxes from 1.6td jx it's much better on long distances because of lower rpm)

the 1.7d (KY 57ps) does the same. is also slow but better then the CS.
the short gearbox problem is the same.
the 1.7 engine has an improvent of the water circuit. so its a very durable engine. the later 1.9 engines (not in vanagon. only in golf, passat, eurovan) have this improvment to

----------------
the 1.6turbodiesel Jx (70ps)
->is a lot stronger because of its turbo
->torque 140nm (103 ft lb) is ok (the watercooled flat 4 isn that much better. an the small kkk14 turbo makes a nice torque curve)
->travelling at 65mph is well possible. you won't recoqnize small hills
->on long hills you also get slower but not so much es on CS oder KY. mostly the JX stays between 2400 und 2800rpm wich is the plateau of maximum torque. otherwise the mountain is to strong and you have to shift
->the 5speed gearbox (3h, ass) makes [email protected]/h(62.5mph). so travelling at 55 oder 65 mph is very nice (but the gearbox could even be longer. perhaps bei changing the last gear from 0.816 to 0.744...or by using a 4.57diff like in aap gearbox)
->the 1.6d has some thermical problems because in stock it didn't have a charge cooler! so the compressed air from the turbo has high temperatur when it gets into the engine. oil has high temperatur from the turbo and the engine.
->another problem is that the turbo is not in the middle (compare a golf oder passat there it is in the middle). the turbo is on cylinder 4 so it runs much hotter here so cylinder 4 wears out much faster the the rest of the engine (you can often feal it after 100000miles)

so you need to use your head by driving the jx. drive it like a turbo engine.
->engine cold you drive slow
->engine hot you cool down a bit before you stop
->if engine warm you could use it's power(but not by running at full throttle over long distances. 65mph is ok. 75or 85 is not ok it's only vmax)

an jx is good or 1000miles to 200000miles.
it won't last much more (a ky could drive 300000-350000miles if you also use your head)

the difference between turbo and non turbo is big!
the jx is a nice engine if you be nice to the jx.
its the most installed engine in vanagon in germany!

diesel fuel consumption is between 33 and 27 mpg. so long distances about 470 miles whit 60 liters (one fuel tank).

--------------

if the jx is tuning by a charge cooler and an additional oil cooler you have a better engine
->not so much heat
->more torque (160-180nm , means 118-132ft lb)
->more power (80-95 hp instead of 70)
->how much power you have depends if you run the turbo at stock 0.7bar or if you push it to 0.9 oder 1.0bar. it also depends on the performance of your charge cooler (water charge cooler is best for rear engins)
->with charge cooler its not slower(even faster) in accelaration than a 2.1wbx.
->if you want to travel faster than 65 miles you should make the gearbox longer for lower rpm (and even for 65 it could be longer than stock)

--------------

if your 1.6td jx dies or is worn out you could easyl install a 1.9td (aaz , 1y+turbo). these are non tdi engins.
install is very easy. you could use almost any part of the jx install (turbo, injection pump, engine mounts etc pp.)
http://www.t3-infos.de/images/PROJEKT_AAZ_detaillierte_Beschreibung.pdf
1.9td + jx parts without charge cooler has about 80-82hp (or with charge cooler 90-115hp
and becauso of larger engine hub+bore you have the torque much earlier.
->jx you can drive well vom 1600rpm , 2400-3500rpm torque is very good, and 4500 is max rpm
->aaz+jx parts you can drive well vom 1100rpm, 1900-3000rpm torque is very good, and 4000-4500 is max rpm
->if you want a nice aaz install you also install: charge cooler, oil cooler, long gearbox (piston speed in 1.9td at same rpm is higher than in 1.6td because the 1.9 has more hub)

an aaz with charge cooler is not much slower than a 1z oder even afn tdi engine. but the tdi's are running a bit cooler and have a litte lower fuel consumption.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

Wow! Great info.

Will you permit me a qualification and a follow-up question.

1. This would be used primarily in Canada. I remember that old diesel techno!ogy was not good in cold weather. Is climate a consideration?

2. (And I am moving out of T3 vanagon here I know but) another option I am considering is a 2.4L diesel eurovan (T4) . How much of an improvment enginewise /performance wise could this be?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

II. diesel engines on eurovan(T4)

best is the 2.5TDI 5cylinders
->102hp
->150hp is even bedder but it has bigger brakes, a vtg turbo, etc so some parts are more expensive
->88hp is like 102hp but without a charge cooler (so you could buy it and update by charge cooler)

secound choice would be the 1.9TD 68hp (engine Code ABL) 4 cylinders
->68hp is slow. the eurovan has higher weight than vanagon (but better aerodynamic so 75mph on highway is possible with the ABL engine)
->you can do an easy upgrade by a charge cooler (oft 2.5tdi). so you will have about 90hp oder with some tuning at injection pump also 100-110hp
->its a 4cylinder. so for working at the engine you have a lot of more space
here the link for ABL charge cooler update:
http://www.t4-wiki.de/wiki/Motortuning_(ABL)
and here a long tuning thread
http://www.t4forum.de/wbb3/board19-technik-bereich...ing-guide/

third choice would be the 2.4d (78hp AAB or later 75hp AJA) 5cyl
->it has low rpm torque because of 2.4 ltr
->but it doesn't have a turbo. so its not that much faster than a stock ABL
->and an ABL with charge cooler update is much quicker in acceleration than the ABA/AJA and also faster
->it's also possible to install a turbo at the 2.4d to have a 2.4td. but you want find parts easily (older non tdi audi parts i think).so the bedder choice if you want 5cyl turbo power is buying the tdi

worst choice:
1.9d 60hp 1X 4cyl
->its an ABL without turbo. very slow. (like cs in vanagon)

------
you could also install an 1.9TDI 1Z 90hp or even 110hp (AFN) at vanagon.
http://andreaundtom.homepage.t-online.de/
vw didtn offer these 4cyl tdi at eurovan!
->but the easier way is bying a 2.5tdi
->or the charge cooler update at ABL

----------------------

I. vanagon
-> -25 degree celsius is no problem for jx
->the non tdi diesels (like jx or aaz) won't have the low heating problems that tdi engins have. they just produce more heat
->turbo diesel engine is heavier than wbx engine. so you will have a slightly better traction with the diesel than wbx
->heating is also very good

and if you live in colder regions you have a lot of update options to make your jx a good winter engine
->diesel/diesel filter warm up
->engine pre-warmup
->heating updates by pump, or glow plugs, or isolation of the heating tubes
->secoung heater in the back (its easy to install)
->glow plug updates (glow relay 102 instead relay 60. so you will have less smoke at could starting engine. you neighbour will like it), or glowing without temperatur sensor (so you could glow up to 60 secounds instead of temp sensor controlled 0-20s)
->thicker cables at glow plug circiut (stock cables are thin)
->stock engine cover under the engine (often its missing for easier service. but if you install it you dont have so much cold airflow at the oil pan)

stock thermostat for jx is 87degree.
->for hot regions or trailers some install 80 or 82 degree. but for heating 87 is better
->maybe you could also use 90degree for the winter (for even bedder heatin)

i think you won't have a cold temperature probleme with a vanagon turbo diesel. -25 celsius wih stock jx is no problem
and if you have colder winters you should give him some winter updates.
and if temperature is below 0 the some of the update ar still fine.


Last edited by newt3 on Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

pjstock wrote:

2. (And I am moving out of T3 vanagon here I know but) another option I am considering is a 2.4L diesel eurovan (T4) . How much of an improvment enginewise /performance wise could this be?


Non turbo, yea?

My buddy had one, quite slow, his was prone to running a bit hot, maybe his cooling system was not working correctly though. I drove it a couple times, the pedal spent a lot of time on the floor.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

The 2.4 is basically the 5 cyl version of the 4 cyl 1.9 idi

So about 1.25 times as large.

If 1.9NA hp = 65 _ then 1.25 x 65 = 80 hp

so if approximate = 80 hp it's going to only be so fast

Mark
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

Is the van in good shape? If yes then buy it bases on that and budget for repower including transmission.

A subaru with a subarugears transmission is probably your best bet
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

Good grief - a 1.6L NA diesel in a Vanagon makes a 1600 Bus seem like a rocket ship!!! We rented a Joker in Europe with a 1.6 and it was UNBELIEVABLY gutless.

Yes, I currently drive a 2.5 Subaru powered van but I still have my ~80HP 1.9WBX. Back in the seventies we had a '56 Kombi with a 1600 that was much friskier than that damned Joker.

If you like the van, fine, but plan on putting a more capable engine in it.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

The OP's first post refers to a 1.6 Turbo Diesel with Intercooler
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

According to VW the top speed of a tintop with the JX engine was 127km/h It delivered 70hp at 4500 rpm and 138nm of torque at 2800 rpm
Oettinger installed intercoolers on them and they then had 95hp. I think you then could cruise at 120km/h on flatt roads, and top speed of about 145km/h. A local tuning company in my neighborhood could install intercooler on a JX engine giving 100hp and 190nm.
A petrol version with 78hp did 130km/h The 1,9 90hp did 139 and the 112hp about 150km/h and the mighty 50hp Diesel did 103 km/h with a 4 speed gearbox.

I think it is all about what you are used to and what you expect. My 1987 VW LT karmann Coachbuildt has the 6 cylinder version of the 50hp engine. It delivers 75hp at 4500 rpm and it is situated just under the front seats, so a bit noisy. The RV weights 3,2 mtonn and is of course not aerodynamic in any way. we cruise on the autobahn in Germany at about 85-90 km/h and the top speed is 108 km/h
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

A NA diesel 82 Westphalia is not very useful on the open road. I added oil sprayers for the pistons, a TB02 turbo, and changed out the transaxle for an aircooled unit with a better ring and pinion ratio. Much more useful, but slow by today's standards. Mileage is 32-34 MPG, prefers 62 MPH. Now at 340K miles. Engine should last 500K.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

jberger wrote:
The OP's first post refers to a 1.6 Turbo Diesel with Intercooler


Huh. I abase myself before you.

And he says he's PJ Stock, too!!! Shocked
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:54 am    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

this ist ja torque diagram for 1.6td (jx,jr) 70hp/140nm and 1.6td+charge cooler (ra,sb) 80hp/155nm
(the charge cooler engine you could offer at golf, jetta and passat. it was a soft tuning with stock 0.7bar turbopressure)

http://golf3td.de/forum/download/file.php?id=48

the 80hp/155nm version will be good comparable to 1.9dh wbx 83hp in power and accellaration
----------------

and this is one diagram of a 0.9bar tuned 1.6td with larger llk 110hp/226nm
http://golf3td.de/forum/download/file.php?id=59

last one is a bit extreme. you could also reach 115hp/235nm.
but in vanagon charge cooler won't sitz in full airflow of the front.

here is a nice water charge cooler option for vanagon:
watercoold intake manifold
http://up.picr.de/19909667ay.jpg
http://up.picr.de/19909668ea.jpg
http://up.picr.de/19909692kq.jpg
http://up.picr.de/19909665zj.jpg
http://up.picr.de/19909664ai.jpg
https://www.bulliforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=80164
you could easily reach 95hp/180nm. if you wan't more you have to do some tuning at the diesel-injection-pump and use more turbo pressure

it will ran as powerful as a 2.1 wbx 112hp/174nm dj engine
-----------------

if it's stillt not strong engough use a 1.9td aaz oder 1y block.
more torque than 1.6td and evan from lower rpm's.
and you have the choice
->of low rpm power (kkk14 turbo) o
->der later rpm power (kkk24).
both turbo will run well on an aaz.
for the 1.6td in vanagon the kkk24 is to large (you will have a turbo lag at low rpm. some passat 32b have kkk24 but passat is 700kg lighter than vanagon or 1000kg lighter than vanagon campers)

1.6 jx has kkk14 in stock
1.9td aaz have a kkk14 on early models and a k03 on later modells (k03 is the same as on 1Z tdi engine. its a little bit smaller than a kkk14 i think)

----------------------------

if you don't like diesel (or you kill your jx) you have the choice to swap to 2.0 8v petrol engine (gti , 2E, ADY, AGG). 115hp, 166nm.
jx base is a good base for this engine swap. some elektrik. the rest is very easy. and it will run like a 2.1wbx dj but even whith a litte less fuel consumption.
https://data.motor-talk.de/data/galleries/0/99/4281/38815997/dsci0254kl-5238170145798078433.jpg
http://www.bosch-service-zupp.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/2E-im-T3-Tim.jpg
(everything at the same place like diesel. only air intake you have to be creative)

--------------
so if you afraid of the diesel just buy it.
i guess you will like it. and if you don't you have some easy options.

biggest disadvantage of the diesel is it sound and vibration.
it's much louder than a wbx.
you can do some additional isolation and even hydro engine mounts
http://lh5.ggpht.com/-NFUp_2JYZRo/VD1_QaCej5I/AAAA....20.34.jpg
http://www2.vwbus-online.org/forum/img/uploaded/image5390.jpg
but you won't reach the level of a wbx.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

Quote:
1. This would be used primarily in Canada. I remember that old diesel techno!ogy was not good in cold weather. Is climate a consideration?


My 1983 NA Diesel started in -20F weather in upstate NY reliably with no block heaters or boosts.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: how lame (or not) is a 1.6L diesel? Reply with quote

how old was it at the time?
fresh, new, crisp they're fine..

our new 84 diesel rabbit was great the first 4years too. Wink
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