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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16923 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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Well, last summer I was looking for an exhaust for my new 1800 build. I considered lots of different systems and I had a big budget. Someone, I can’t remember who, told me about a Dutch guy that built one using an original quality T1 muffler along with two T3 dampers made to fit. So rounded up the parts and asked my welder to fab it together. I really like the results. Sounds good and is not Chinese crap. Works great with my modified Solex 34-3 and DVDA.
I’m actually going to do it all again on my latest project. A 1971 camper that needs a new engine and transmission. I’ll probably buy the muff and dampers tomorrow. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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aeromech wrote: |
Well, last summer I was looking for an exhaust for my new 1800 build. I considered lots of different systems and I had a big budget. Someone, I can’t remember who, told me about a Dutch guy that built one using an original quality T1 muffler along with two T3 dampers made to fit. So rounded up the parts and asked my welder to fab it together. I really like the results. Sounds good and is not Chinese crap. Works great with my modified Solex 34-3 and DVDA.
I’m actually going to do it all again on my latest project. A 1971 camper that needs a new engine and transmission. I’ll probably buy the muff and dampers tomorrow. |
I thought I spied downcycled Type 3 in there. So, I'm curious... Why couldn't I do the same thing for a 1600 with a quality Beetle muffler (if such an animal exists) and another cheap resonator/ TP to match the one we have? Wouldn't be bad to attach a bracket on each side.
Should double the flow, yes? With less noise... and not look too badly hacked... _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16923 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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If I remember in the morning I’ll post some better pics of the muffler including the brackets my welder made. I’d bet this would work well on a 1600. The carb heat is a large part of the benefit of using this compared to aftermarket muffs _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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aeromech wrote: |
If I remember in the morning I’ll post some better pics of the muffler including the brackets my welder made. I’d bet this would work well on a 1600. The carb heat is a large part of the benefit of using this compared to aftermarket muffs |
Cool, thanks! _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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Tram, I'm an absolutely stickler for quiet engines, smooth power delivery regardless of engine temp, and I've driven over a hundred VW's in the last few years.
Aeromech's engine is damn quiet at the tailpipe for the power it produces. I would know, I drove it yesterday…
Highly recommended for more flow than stock without much sacrifice.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16923 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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_________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6936 Location: Durango, CO
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16923 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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richparker wrote: |
Looks good Gary.
Is that a oil line hanging down? |
Yeah, just a temporary loop for the full flow. It's all completed now.
_________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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aeromech wrote: |
If I remember in the morning I’ll post some better pics of the muffler including the brackets my welder made. I’d bet this would work well on a 1600. The carb heat is a large part of the benefit of using this compared to aftermarket muffs |
Gary.....or anyone for that matter...with regard to the type 3 Damper pipes......there were type 4 mufflers with the center exit damper pipe as well as well. I have an NOS one laying around.
My question is this....over the years I have had several damper mufflers.....and have never had the chance to section one of those damper pipes to see what is inside.
From the double tube construction....it has always been my assumption that this pipe is a resonator.
Meaning.....you have an inner pipe with perforations of strategic size and placement that allow gas to flow into the space between inner and outer tube. The gas acts as a fluctuating buffer that absorbs sound energy in a certain spectrum.
It would be nice to see the inside of one. Ray |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16923 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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I ask my welder for a picture. Might be a couple weeks though. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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aeromech wrote: |
I ask my welder for a picture. Might be a couple weeks though. |
Thanks!
As I noted...I have a type 4 damper muffler. Its either Lange or Wagner....but I do not have the damper pipe for it. If I did....I would be torn between selling it (because they are very hard to find for a right exit damper pipe)...or cutting it open to figure out the guts.... because I will never use it either way!
Ray |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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I've always suspected it was the smaller tailpipe that knocked down the power on my 1971 when I went to a stock exhaust. Now I know for sure. That double exhaust Gary has should be adequate for most street stock or semi-stock engines. Most of us don't wind out the bus engines beyond 5K so nothing more elaborate would be needed. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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Gary- Thanks. I think this is a perfect solution. What do you think of my idea of just getting a second stock resonator and TP to match the one I have for running this on a stock 1600 DP? It seems to me that if the single TP is adequate for, say, a 1200 but chokes a 1600 having twice the air flow out the TPs should be excellent for what we have, in fact ought to be good for up into the 2.0 range but I'm not an engineer.
This way anything on the exhaust could easily be replaced if needed with stock available parts and no fabrication beyond bolting a stock Bus TP support bracket on each end of the Beetlejuice muffler.
Thoughts?
Keep in mind this muffler will be a sacrifice to the salt and magnesium chloride gods on the winter roads of NYC. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16923 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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Something tells me that the tailpipe to muff diameter is smaller on the T2 muff than the T1 muff. If you look up the seal/clamp kits they are different. So, if you tried a T1 muff and then added a bus exhaust pipe you'd need to adapt the size up. In other words the chrome pea shooters have a larger diameter (on the outside) than the bus exhaust pipe does.
Tram,
I have a video on my iPhone. PM me contact info and I'll send it to you _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13383 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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Tram wrote: |
It seems to me that if the single TP is adequate for, say, a 1200 but chokes a 1600 having twice the air flow out the TPs should be excellent for what we have, in fact ought to be good for up into the 2.0 range but I'm not an engineer.
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This has been an interesting thread to monitor for me running the 1776 with a stock muffler. I remember asking Colin his thoughts about running a stock muffler with the 1776. He said absolutely no problem.
As a side note, I took the bus on an errand yesterday. I drove 10 miles each way down the freeway. It accelerated nicely to 48MPH and then I shifted into 4th gear on the freeway onramp. I accelerated easily up to 65 MPH and stayed there on the drive. I still had pedal left to accelerate to say 70 with ease.
I'm sharing yesterdays trip story as I wonder what the difference could be between your engine and mine? Yes, your engine is only a 1600 which doesn't have the same HP but if an engine was going to be limited by the same stock muffler, I'd think mine would be choking as well? _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
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**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16923 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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It's a good point Bill and maybe the OP has some kind of varmint inside that muff blocking flow. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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there are variants on tailpipe ID and angles sold today. That might be something worth comparing. Another option is coming out the muffler to the same side but doubling up side by side. When racing we always came out the corner (or side) opposite the driver and dumped into the slip stream - never behind (it was part of the rule book and pre-race inspection). It probably doesn't matter on a bus as to side but definitely go into the slip stream to get that CO etc., as far away as possible. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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wcfvw69 wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
It seems to me that if the single TP is adequate for, say, a 1200 but chokes a 1600 having twice the air flow out the TPs should be excellent for what we have, in fact ought to be good for up into the 2.0 range but I'm not an engineer.
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This has been an interesting thread to monitor for me running the 1776 with a stock muffler. I remember asking Colin his thoughts about running a stock muffler with the 1776. He said absolutely no problem.
As a side note, I took the bus on an errand yesterday. I drove 10 miles each way down the freeway. It accelerated nicely to 48MPH and then I shifted into 4th gear on the freeway onramp. I accelerated easily up to 65 MPH and stayed there on the drive. I still had pedal left to accelerate to say 70 with ease.
I'm sharing yesterdays trip story as I wonder what the difference could be between your engine and mine? Yes, your engine is only a 1600 which doesn't have the same HP but if an engine was going to be limited by the same stock muffler, I'd think mine would be choking as well? |
And with this comment...I think everyone should keep in mind...that the original poster switched mufflers....and noted NO OTHER CHANGES.
And....as Colin is noting.....going up in size a slight amount can still work with the stock muffler. So while all are agreeing that the stock muffler body volume and internal plumbing should largely be able to handle a moderate size increase ...and that yes...a change in tailpipe diameter can be a game changing restriction (any restriction can do this actually)........what everyone needs to bear in mind is that even a seemingly small change like a slightly restrictive tailpipe outlet....also changes the air fuel metering capability of the carb and even EFI.
You make virtually any change in the exhaust loop downstream of the heads and it WILL change the flow through the heads and the vacuum signature of the intake tract.
This WILL generally require a change to fuel tuning. Sometimes the change required will be so small you may not even notice if you do not retune for it....other times it can be major.
Again...I am speaking from type 4 direction....but just changing from the Wagner OEM exhaust..right end exit stock muffler to the Ernst right end exit stock muffler.....REQUIRED about a 3-4% change to the fuel mixture to run properly...and better.
Whether it was the 12-15% larger internal volume of the Ernst or the different internal perforation pattern....or both....I do not know. But it required a serious AF adjustment.
Perhaps the original poster should simply adjust for the change. Ray |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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aeromech wrote: |
Something tells me that the tailpipe to muff diameter is smaller on the T2 muff than the T1 muff. If you look up the seal/clamp kits they are different. So, if you tried a T1 muff and then added a bus exhaust pipe you'd need to adapt the size up. In other words the chrome pea shooters have a larger diameter (on the outside) than the bus exhaust pipe does.
Tram,
I have a video on my iPhone. PM me contact info and I'll send it to you |
Thanks, Gary, I was wondering about that. PM in a sec. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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wcfvw69 wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
It seems to me that if the single TP is adequate for, say, a 1200 but chokes a 1600 having twice the air flow out the TPs should be excellent for what we have, in fact ought to be good for up into the 2.0 range but I'm not an engineer.
|
This has been an interesting thread to monitor for me running the 1776 with a stock muffler. I remember asking Colin his thoughts about running a stock muffler with the 1776. He said absolutely no problem.
As a side note, I took the bus on an errand yesterday. I drove 10 miles each way down the freeway. It accelerated nicely to 48MPH and then I shifted into 4th gear on the freeway onramp. I accelerated easily up to 65 MPH and stayed there on the drive. I still had pedal left to accelerate to say 70 with ease.
I'm sharing yesterdays trip story as I wonder what the difference could be between your engine and mine? Yes, your engine is only a 1600 which doesn't have the same HP but if an engine was going to be limited by the same stock muffler, I'd think mine would be choking as well? |
I think your stock muffler came with the one piece larger TP and resonator, yes? _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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