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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| It's a good point Bill and maybe the OP has some kind of varmint inside that muff blocking flow. |
Then the OP and I have the exact same varmint in identical mufflers all the way across the country.  I'm interested in seeing the OP's impression driving his Bus without the TP and resonator.
Any rules against just brazing a bigger, angled bung on what we already have and running a late Type 3 TP that way?
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aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16971
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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Any rules against just brazing a bigger, angled bung on what we already have and running a late Type 3 TP that way?
I think that's one for Tcash to look up in "The Samba Code of Bus conduct" handbook. 
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| aeromech wrote: |
Any rules against just brazing a bigger, angled bung on what we already have and running a late Type 3 TP that way?
I think that's one for Tcash to look up in "The Samba Code of Bus conduct" handbook. |
LOL, I mean is this do- able?
I'm just gathering ideas to scratch my head over at this point. I really like your design and I think it's the best solution and I would already be doing this if it were my Bus. I'm trying to come up with something a little more user friendly involving less- or no- welding/ fabrication is all for the owners who are in an apartment in NYC and are limited on work space and resources when it comes to the inevitable re do due to the tinworm.
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aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16971
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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You know you could slap a T1 stock exhaust on there and just run straight pipes like the stingers but without the baffling. I wouldn't leave it like that but if it worked you could have a muffler shop fab up some side pipes I'm sure.
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| You know you could slap a T1 stock exhaust on there and just run straight pipes like the stingers but without the baffling. I wouldn't leave it like that but if it worked you could have a muffler shop fab up some side pipes I'm sure. |
I'm also still wondering about the stock Bus pipes maybe with a sleeve to take up the slack at the muff. If I could get an OD measurement on your tailpipes where they enter the Beetle muff this will help... at your convenience, of course.
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aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| Tram wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
| You know you could slap a T1 stock exhaust on there and just run straight pipes like the stingers but without the baffling. I wouldn't leave it like that but if it worked you could have a muffler shop fab up some side pipes I'm sure. |
I'm also still wondering about the stock Bus pipes maybe with a sleeve to take up the slack at the muff. If I could get an OD measurement on your tailpipes where they enter the Beetle muff this will help... at your convenience, of course. |
That's an easy one because it's the same size as any beetle stinger pipe. Most shops have at least a few of those rusting someplace.
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ozzmonaut
Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2008
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Location: mount airy, NC
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| FWIW, I know the stock beetle mufflers will handle a size increase. I had a 72 Super with a 1776. I went back to a stock dual outlet on it and didn't detect much power loss. That was almost 20 yrs ago though. Don't remember what brand muffler or any of that. But it seemed to accommodate the engine size well enough for me to travel 80-90mph no problem. I don't push my vw's that hard anymore, but when I was 19... |
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Tram
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| ozzmonaut wrote: |
| FWIW, I know the stock beetle mufflers will handle a size increase. I had a 72 Super with a 1776. I went back to a stock dual outlet on it and didn't detect much power loss. That was almost 20 yrs ago though. Don't remember what brand muffler or any of that. But it seemed to accommodate the engine size well enough for me to travel 80-90mph no problem. I don't push my vw's that hard anymore, but when I was 19... |
Just the fact that heater box size doesn't really need to change till you get up in 1900-2000cc range tells me that a muffler should be able to handle an increase. That's why when SGKent mentioned the TP being a possible issue a little light bulb went off in the vacuum chamber where my brain should be. Very interested to get your impression with JUST the muff and no resonator/ TP.
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
| You know you could slap a T1 stock exhaust on there and just run straight pipes like the stingers but without the baffling. I wouldn't leave it like that but if it worked you could have a muffler shop fab up some side pipes I'm sure. |
I'm also still wondering about the stock Bus pipes maybe with a sleeve to take up the slack at the muff. If I could get an OD measurement on your tailpipes where they enter the Beetle muff this will help... at your convenience, of course. |
That's an easy one because it's the same size as any beetle stinger pipe. Most shops have at least a few of those rusting someplace. |
Not that easy for a Type 3 geek. I'm working with my parts guy on this so I will figure it out.
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aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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I can measure one when I get home around 3:15 if you need
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| I can measure one when I get home around 3:15 if you need |
Parts guy got me an OD on a stock Beetle TP so unless your muffler is modded there I think I am OK on that. Thanks.
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| Tram wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
| I can measure one when I get home around 3:15 if you need |
Parts guy got me an OD on a stock Beetle TP so unless your muffler is modded there I think I am OK on that. Thanks. |
got it
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ozzmonaut
Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2008
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Location: mount airy, NC
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| So I removed the TP/res and went for a ride. I didn't feel much of a change on the low end. Ticking sound was lighter during acceleration. Overall exhaust sound didn't really change much. Top end, I think I gained a little bit back. I still felt limited. Keep in mind, my original test drives didn't put me past 60mph. I made it to 65 this time but really felt held back. I wouldn't feel comfortable driving at 65+ for long. My oil temp spiked quicker than usual as well. Right now I just have a temp sensor integrated with the pressure sensor. No CHT(which is hopefully my next move) and I have a temp sensor in place of the dipstick, but it is on/off and only goes to the idiot light, no actual reading. I know the temp sensor is not reading true temp, probably 20 lower than actual. But I got to 175F (so true temp of 195-200) faster than with my old exhaust. So obviously this restriction is working the engine harder. I know everybody thinks there is an animal in my muffler, but I checked it pretty dang good before installing. I will check again when I remove it to put the old exhaust back on. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| ozzmonaut wrote: |
| So I removed the TP/res and went for a ride. I didn't feel much of a change on the low end. Ticking sound was lighter during acceleration. Overall exhaust sound didn't really change much. Top end, I think I gained a little bit back. I still felt limited. Keep in mind, my original test drives didn't put me past 60mph. I made it to 65 this time but really felt held back. I wouldn't feel comfortable driving at 65+ for long. My oil temp spiked quicker than usual as well. Right now I just have a temp sensor integrated with the pressure sensor. No CHT(which is hopefully my next move) and I have a temp sensor in place of the dipstick, but it is on/off and only goes to the idiot light, no actual reading. I know the temp sensor is not reading true temp, probably 20 lower than actual. But I got to 175F (so true temp of 195-200) faster than with my old exhaust. So obviously this restriction is working the engine harder. I know everybody thinks there is an animal in my muffler, but I checked it pretty dang good before installing. I will check again when I remove it to put the old exhaust back on. |
OK, thanks for info. So the Aeromech design it shall be.
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aeromech
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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There’s a Dutch guy named Harry that deserves the credit. I just brought the idea to North America
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ozzmonaut
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| Early in the thread, the question of my jetting came up. I pulled the carb, and my main jet is 116, so it wasn't upgraded for the exhaust. I might look into the dual outlet beetle exhast as well. I don't know why I didn't go that route in the first place. I had a thread asking about stock exhaust as an option, and I even mentioned the possibility of dual outlet stock. Shoulda woulda coulda... or whatever the saying is. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| There’s a Dutch guy named Harry that deserves the credit. I just brought the idea to North America |
Well, I'm glad you did. It seems like such a perfectly obvious workaround that I am surprised it's never been done before.
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wcfvw69 
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Joined: June 10, 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| Tram wrote: |
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
It seems to me that if the single TP is adequate for, say, a 1200 but chokes a 1600 having twice the air flow out the TPs should be excellent for what we have, in fact ought to be good for up into the 2.0 range but I'm not an engineer.
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This has been an interesting thread to monitor for me running the 1776 with a stock muffler. I remember asking Colin his thoughts about running a stock muffler with the 1776. He said absolutely no problem.
As a side note, I took the bus on an errand yesterday. I drove 10 miles each way down the freeway. It accelerated nicely to 48MPH and then I shifted into 4th gear on the freeway onramp. I accelerated easily up to 65 MPH and stayed there on the drive. I still had pedal left to accelerate to say 70 with ease.
I'm sharing yesterdays trip story as I wonder what the difference could be between your engine and mine? Yes, your engine is only a 1600 which doesn't have the same HP but if an engine was going to be limited by the same stock muffler, I'd think mine would be choking as well? |
I think your stock muffler came with the one piece larger TP and resonator, yes? |
Honestly Georg, I don't know. I can measure the outside diameter if needed? BusDepot sent a split screen pipe originally. I called them and they then sent the correct bay pipe.
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
It seems to me that if the single TP is adequate for, say, a 1200 but chokes a 1600 having twice the air flow out the TPs should be excellent for what we have, in fact ought to be good for up into the 2.0 range but I'm not an engineer.
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This has been an interesting thread to monitor for me running the 1776 with a stock muffler. I remember asking Colin his thoughts about running a stock muffler with the 1776. He said absolutely no problem.
As a side note, I took the bus on an errand yesterday. I drove 10 miles each way down the freeway. It accelerated nicely to 48MPH and then I shifted into 4th gear on the freeway onramp. I accelerated easily up to 65 MPH and stayed there on the drive. I still had pedal left to accelerate to say 70 with ease.
I'm sharing yesterdays trip story as I wonder what the difference could be between your engine and mine? Yes, your engine is only a 1600 which doesn't have the same HP but if an engine was going to be limited by the same stock muffler, I'd think mine would be choking as well? |
I think your stock muffler came with the one piece larger TP and resonator, yes? |
Honestly Georg, I don't know. I can measure the outside diameter if needed? BusDepot sent a split screen pipe originally. I called them and they then sent the correct bay pipe. |
Well, I went back to your thread and I thought you were the one with the one- piece fatter tailpipe, but maybe not.
Half the "fun" of all this seems to be that even the quality of these parts isn't consistent one minute to the next.
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SGKent
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Went back to stock exhaust... now engine is struggling |
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I am not familiar with the jetting on the 1968 - 1970 carb(s) as to what gives the best performance. It appears 116 is stock for 1968 and 1969. 112.5 is stock for 1970. Generally going one main larger is the best performance because VW tended to jet the engines 1 size lean for better economy and less CO.
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