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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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 Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:09 am Post subject: Disc for the early bays |
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Has anyone check out the empi disc's for the early bays yet? Just saw an ad on the back of HVW's .
my bus could use some better stopping  was wondering about prices? Thanks,Madmike
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76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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williamM
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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Just put a bay front end on with discs already there. Bought one for $250 not long ago- it had already been serviced with good tie rods and ball joints n some replacement calipers. be aware of the different bolt patterns from the 71/72 wo Vac assist. to the 73 and later - with vac advance- they don't fit.- well they fit, the bottom bolts are different. and the replacement servo is a larger diameter than stock.
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Last edited by williamM on Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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djdh68dlux
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2005
Posts: 770
Location: I.E., SoCal
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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I haven't used it myself, but a guy I met and was talking to at a show last weekend was raving about this kit from Wolfsburg West. He said the difference was night and day, even without a brake booster. I wouldn't trust EMPI for anything anymore.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211698502
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1968 Deluxe "Clipper L" Type 2
Looking for a VW club in Southern California? Check out Inland Valley Volkswagens: www.ivvw.org |
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OB Bus
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2003
Posts: 2541
Location: Ocean Beach in Beautiful BLUE California
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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There is a long thread over in the Split Bus forums on disc brake conversions. 64-70 buses all use the same brakes.
The EMPI unit looks like a great deal price wise but who is going to one the first one to play guinea pig?
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Larry in OB
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69 Westfalia and 2002 Eurovan Camper. |
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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not worth it man, drums all the way.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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| Brian wrote: |
| not worth it man, drums all the way. |
You forgot the part where it’s “drums, and nearly two grand and a weekend in your pocket” all the way.
Just remember:
The three or four highest mileage buses on this website all have four-wheel drums.
Robbie
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richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6982
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
Just remember:
The three or four highest mileage buses on this website all have four-wheel drums.
Robbie |
Yea.....but madmike has a HEAVY foot!
Sorry Mike, no info from me. I’m still rolling drums. 🥁 🥁 🥁
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22665
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:09 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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They aren't just drums, they are double leading edge, dual hydraulic cylinder drums...they rock if you keep them adjusted in tight
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:39 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| They aren't just drums, they are double leading edge, dual hydraulic cylinder drums...they rock if you keep them adjusted in tight |
You should drive NYCynthia's bus. It's got an Aeromech-installed '71 booster on stock early drums. Double leading-edge dual-cylinder masterpieces combined with tip-toe VW power-assist brakes.
Yeah, the steering wheel tastes a little bland at 65mph.
Robbie
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Tbob
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:25 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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Other than making sure that everything is working correctly, and that all maintenance is done correctly, are there any tips you can give us that can help us with older busses to improve their stopping capability? My 69 stops so poorly compared to my 73 that I have all but stopped driving it. When careless drivers pull into that extra space that you have to leave in front of you in traffic, the resultant loss of 15-20 feet of stopping distance has almost resulted in accidents. I have purchased almost all the components to install the booster (all I need is the bracket to weld to the beam) but I do not remember the brakes ever being all that good, despite multiple brake jobs by both myself and various shops. I have owned this bus for over 40 years, driven it over 350,000 miles, but the brakes have never hauled me down like the discs. Is there a brand of brake shoe that everyone prefers? Is there one master cylinder that people have better success with? I have turned drums, replaced drums, arced brake shoes, replaced lines, replaced master cylinders, replaced wheel cylinders(all 6!) multiple times in my ownership, but I never remember finishing/having a brake job finished where I thought to myself wow, this works great! It always worked, but the discs were always that much better. I have also converted several of my 60's American trucks to discs from drums, and the difference is night and day, although to be honest, the conversions always included power brake install at the same time, so I may be slanting the evidence there. So, What might I be missing?
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1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
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OB Bus
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2003
Posts: 2541
Location: Ocean Beach in Beautiful BLUE California
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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The power booster will reduce pedal effort needed to stop but it will not stop any quicker than non power brakes. The drum setup when everything is working properly is a very decent system.
I'd still like to have discs.
(Yes, I have driven NYCynthia's bus.)
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Larry in OB
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
69 Westfalia and 2002 Eurovan Camper. |
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djdh68dlux
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2005
Posts: 770
Location: I.E., SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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| Tbob wrote: |
| Other than making sure that everything is working correctly, and that all maintenance is done correctly, are there any tips you can give us that can help us with older busses to improve their stopping capability? My 69 stops so poorly compared to my 73 that I have all but stopped driving it. When careless drivers pull into that extra space that you have to leave in front of you in traffic, the resultant loss of 15-20 feet of stopping distance has almost resulted in accidents. I have purchased almost all the components to install the booster (all I need is the bracket to weld to the beam) but I do not remember the brakes ever being all that good, despite multiple brake jobs by both myself and various shops. I have owned this bus for over 40 years, driven it over 350,000 miles, but the brakes have never hauled me down like the discs. Is there a brand of brake shoe that everyone prefers? Is there one master cylinder that people have better success with? I have turned drums, replaced drums, arced brake shoes, replaced lines, replaced master cylinders, replaced wheel cylinders(all 6!) multiple times in my ownership, but I never remember finishing/having a brake job finished where I thought to myself wow, this works great! It always worked, but the discs were always that much better. I have also converted several of my 60's American trucks to discs from drums, and the difference is night and day, although to be honest, the conversions always included power brake install at the same time, so I may be slanting the evidence there. So, What might I be missing? |
Are you adjusting the brake shoes? My 68 with stock drum system stops just fine. The only time it doesn't? When I haven't adjusted them in a while.
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1968 Deluxe "Clipper L" Type 2
Looking for a VW club in Southern California? Check out Inland Valley Volkswagens: www.ivvw.org |
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wcfvw69 
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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| Tbob wrote: |
| Other than making sure that everything is working correctly, and that all maintenance is done correctly, are there any tips you can give us that can help us with older busses to improve their stopping capability? My 69 stops so poorly compared to my 73 that I have all but stopped driving it. When careless drivers pull into that extra space that you have to leave in front of you in traffic, the resultant loss of 15-20 feet of stopping distance has almost resulted in accidents. I have purchased almost all the components to install the booster (all I need is the bracket to weld to the beam) but I do not remember the brakes ever being all that good, despite multiple brake jobs by both myself and various shops. I have owned this bus for over 40 years, driven it over 350,000 miles, but the brakes have never hauled me down like the discs. Is there a brand of brake shoe that everyone prefers? Is there one master cylinder that people have better success with? I have turned drums, replaced drums, arced brake shoes, replaced lines, replaced master cylinders, replaced wheel cylinders(all 6!) multiple times in my ownership, but I never remember finishing/having a brake job finished where I thought to myself wow, this works great! It always worked, but the discs were always that much better. I have also converted several of my 60's American trucks to discs from drums, and the difference is night and day, although to be honest, the conversions always included power brake install at the same time, so I may be slanting the evidence there. So, What might I be missing? |
I think the big issue today with doing drum brake jobs is most people don't arc the shoes to the drums. Others buy the cheapest master cylinder, wheel cylinder, etc. There's been a ton of pictures of Chinese made brake pads laid inside a brake drum where the steel arc of the pad was a mile off. The actual brake pad material hitting the drum would be less than 50%.
What then happens is the brake job is completed with the poorly made pads. When the owner drives the bus, they apply the brakes. The brake pad is pushed out against the drum but only a small percentage of the pad material is actually hitting the drum to slow the bus down.
Back in the 80's at a shop I worked at, we'd get new brake pads for whatever car. All four drums went on a brake lathe to get trued and the surface level and flat. The brake pads were laid in the drum then put on a brake pad arcing machine. It sanded the pad material so they fit the arc of the drum perfectly meaning when the car was driven and the brakes applied, 100% of the entire brake pad surface pushed out against the drum to stop the car.
When I changed the front pads on my 70' bus a while back, I checked the pads in the drums. They were close to matching the arc but it would of been better to have them arced. I put them on and adjusted them. The road test demonstrated the entire brake pad surface was not making contact with the drums as the brakes felt no where near as effective as they should of been. The vehicle was safe to drive but I knew the pads needed to wear into the drums. Fast forward 1k miles, and the brakes are almost feeling normal. I can tell the front brake pads are now worn into the drum better and I'm getting close to having 100% of the brake pad material hitting the drums when I apply them.
There are still old school brake shops that can reline original brake pads. They can also install different types of brake pad material as well. There are different brake pad compositions that effect braking distance. You can also take your drums in and they will turn them, reline your brake pads, arc them to the drums and you're good to go.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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the reasons manufacturers went to discs are
1) less fade when extended stopping gets them really hot.
2) more cooling on discs
3) cheaper labor to do maintenance.
4) Less working parts
5) do better when wet
6) less rotational mass (inertia)
7) less chance of axle oil getting on them
All that said, if you aren't belted in, properly installed, arced, and adjusted drum brakes can put you thru the windshield just as well as discs can. Unless you want to buy an expensive bling factor - just stay with the factory brakes and install them properly or have someone who knows how help you.
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RocketSurgeon
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2005
Posts: 442
Location: Roseville, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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I wish drums were good enough.... With the added HP and speed of an engine conversion my drums did not survive  They are riddled with dark/hard spots from being overheated. And I honestly didn’t think I was too hard on them. But now they squeal and grind as I come to a stop. I am debating between three disc kits :
CSP
Wagenwest “Babystang”
Empi
The German CSP kit gets my vote for now but the price of the empi kit is enticing.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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| SGKent wrote: |
the reasons manufacturers went to discs are
1) less fade when extended stopping gets them really hot.
2) more cooling on discs
3) cheaper labor to do maintenance.
4) Less working parts
5) do better when wet
6) less rotational mass (inertia)
7) less chance of axle oil getting on them
All that said, if you aren't belted in, properly installed, arced, and adjusted drum brakes can put you thru the windshield just as well as discs can. Unless you want to buy an expensive bling factor - just stay with the factory brakes and install them properly or have someone who knows how help you. |
This is the best and most succinct explanation I have seen of why the world went to discs instead of drums.
In short....they are better than drums. This is not saying for the application...that the stock drums are not good enough. But if I were driving an ACVW...any ACVW....from Iowa to Vegas through the rocky mountains like I did with my Golf last September...and you asked me which type I would rather have on my car..discs or drums....it would be discs all the way. Ray |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:48 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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Yea Rich, I do have a Heavy right foot
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'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Disc for the early bays |
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try not to drive with your foot on the gas and brake at the same time, or alternate between the two. Sit back and enjoy the ride.
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Tom Powell
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