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ZsZ
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Joined: December 11, 2010
Posts: 1647
Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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 Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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According to this table: http://t3-infos.de/images/T3-Getriebe.pdf most 4spd boxes had 0,85 4th while most 5spd ones had 0,816 5th.
In passenger vans, between the most common JX engine matched 4spd box (ABH) and 5spd box (3H) the speed difference is about 7kmph at 3000rpm. 82,7kmph vs 89,9kmph. 8%, not as much. (3000 vs 3250 at 90kmph)
So there is some gain in final speed, but the most advantage is in uphill climbing as you have more gears to choose from.
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Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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| epowell wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
but for a rebuild, you'd want to change all the wear items. |
So that means it is a must to change all:
- idler gears
- slider hubs
- synchros
- bearings |
Continuing with my analysis practice with spare DK parts, I found some chipped teeth on the 1 - 2 slider.... but anyway if I understand correctly both sliders should be replaced as a matter of course.
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2331
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
That is baloney. The 2wd 5 speeds are closer spaced throughout and generally had a 5th ratio taller than 4th in a 4 speed and a 4th that was a taller ratio than 3rd in a 4 speed. The overall gearing depends in both models on the r&p ratio.
Syncro 5 speeds are in fact what you describe as they have a special G gear for very low speed driving and a matching special low R gear.
Mark
| epowell wrote: |
...... so I can see that might be more accuratly described not as having 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th - 5th.... but rather, having 0 -1 -2 -3 -4th ...the "0" gear being the added gear rather than the 5th.  clever, but that also means you need the "non-H" pattern. - - - - is it true then that 5 speeds that have the H+ pattern have 5th as the added gear? I'd assume so. |
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I did say "very little advantage" over a 4 speed. (I have no clue what the difference is with the Syncro 5-speed... I admit that. But, I'm sure it is all in my Bentley Manuals.)
Now, before doing my ALH TDI conversion, I researched gear ratios big time. I looked for a 5-speed early on. However, seeing that I would have to change the Top Gear (taller) to bring down the TDI RPMs, I come to the conclusion that any upgrade to either transmission would result in the same ratio for the Top gear to achieve the results I wanted. Finding a 5-speed with a 4.57 R&P (code AAP) would have been like finding a chicken with teeth . A conversion kit from Weddle would have cost me over $1,500.00 (parts only) and I would still have had to upgrade the two Top gears to achieve the same results as I now have in my upgraded 4-speed. (Check out their website)
So, I found a DK which has a 4.57 R&P and upgraded 3rd and 4th gears as well as installed all new syncro rings, new bearings (except the pinion bearing), new 3/4 fork, new 3/4 slider, new 3/4 hub, new reverse gears, new gaskets, etc. I was also lucky to find in a junk yard, the complete shifting rod system from the gear shift back to the transmission.
In the 2-wheel drive 5-speed, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th gears are "located" in the same spot as 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th in a 4-speed (look in the Bentley Manual). Yes, the ratio's are a bit different. But, changing those last two Top gears in either transmission with the same ratio R&P yields the same results.
Back on page 3 of this Thread, I posted a chart of all the Vanagon Transmission gear ratios. I also have an Excel spread sheet with all the gear ratios, including R&P ratios which is "interactive"... plug-in Engine RPMs, tire size, etc., get near perfect on the road speeds in each gear. The speed in my Van (Speedometer or GPS and OBD Port Scan Gauge RPMs) is extremely close to the spreadsheet predictions. (anyone that wants a copy, PM me with email addrees.)
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.
Last edited by AndyBees on Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17153
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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The slider with the gear teeth on the outside are for reverse. When you select
reverse, a small gear is added and as I said earlier, 3 gears will change the final rotation direction. Reverse is not synchronized and the teeth can get damaged when shifting into reverse when you are not fully stopped. The missing teeth do not affect how it selects the gears on both sides of it.
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| The missing teeth do not affect how it selects the gears on both sides of it. |
So those little chips off are no big deal..... I'll assume that those chips happened when someone accidentally put it in reverse without first stopping the tranny (big grinding sound).
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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For your practice assembly, it's fine, but I'd want all parts for the final to be as unmolested as possible.
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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The majority of that damage is from someone letting the clutch out before reverse was completely engaged. It's trash, as is the matching reverse sliding gear.
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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Waldemar Sikorski
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Joined: June 24, 2005
Posts: 573
Location: EU
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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Thanks. |
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:19 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
if you have 'the knack' you can do this, and as an instrument builder you probably do. i did my 091/1, first trans ever, and so far so good. did i miss some things an experienced builder would do, sure. but i spent the labor money on parts and possibly ended up with a better trans than if a builder had rushed thru one for me. |
I was thinking about this statement and comparing to my experience as an instrument maker. I remember my very first serious instrument (a lute) which took a very long time to make because I only proceeded further with it when I was completely sure about what I was to do next. The instrument turned out very well and I would say that in some ways better than what I do now because of the extremely slow careful way I did it. Now I build instruments very quickly and as a result sometimes overlook details that I did not overlook during my very first build. -- for example, on my first build I did everything by the book even if some procedures seemed redundant or excessive... now I omit certain procedures or rush thru them > sometimes this shows up later as an issue, sometimes not. > no question that now after building 50 instruments, my results are much better, however my very first instruments were also good when I took the extra time and care to make sure it was right.
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Long Enterprises
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Joined: February 08, 2015
Posts: 1
Location: Sebastopol, California
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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We have sold thousands of our “091 VW Transaxle Rebuilders Course” CD’s over the last 15 years and have never had a single complaint about them being blurry. I suppose if you magnify any image enough you can make it blurry. You also neglected to mention that we offered you full refund if you were so dissatisfied which you declined.
Rick Long
Long Enterprises
VW Transaxle Specialist (retired)
http://www.longenterprises.com/ |
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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| Long Enterprises wrote: |
We have sold thousands of our “091 VW Transaxle Rebuilders Course” CD’s over the last 15 years and have never had a single complaint about them being blurry. I suppose if you magnify any image enough you can make it blurry. You also neglected to mention that we offered you full refund if you were so dissatisfied which you declined.
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Rick, really, there is no point in trying to downplay the very low resolution of the photos, which you yourself fully admitted to in your private email to me...
...however I complained and criticized about this on the first day that I dug into the course > I was a bit freaked out because I imagined that this low res. issue would hinder the courses usefulness. In truth, as I went thru the entire course, indeed I realized that the blurriness of the photos does not really reduce the usefulness of the course. It is still an extremely concise, well-thought out, and very useful product and I'm grateful to you for making it.
I also understand that probably you made the course back in the early days of digital photography so you can be forgiven for this... also that probably accounts for why you have not have complaints. Nobody would expect you now to re-photograph everything.
Having said all of that, my own suggestion for you would simply be the following: When you have new inquiries for the course, be upfront with people about low resolution of the photos - let people know about this issue and assure them that in any case the course is still fantastically useful. >>> I think the world is a different place than it was when that course was made and these days people simply expect high resolution. You'd save yourself some aggravation simply by being upfront and disclosing this issue.
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:37 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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Maybe this is a thread hijack, but it seems about the best place to ask my questions:
I'm rebuilding a DK to use behind an AAZ. I've taken several 091's apart over the years and TWO had the front mainshaft bearing failed. The ball retainer is plastic and melted, then allowing the balls to migrate to one side, then the lack of support allowed the 3rd and 4th gears to get destroyed.
Is this a common failure?
Does anyone make a bearing with metal ball retainers?
Or is this just a result of running the gear oil near dry and subsequent overheating?
Any other things I should upgrade to stand the torque of the bigger 1.9 diesel?
BTW, I have most all the factory tools. (My own custom made fixture for holding the case directly in the engine stand.)
Done a few trannies without the fork jig, but now I have one and it's much nicer.
WRT the best trans to use with a bigger diesel, is the DK (air-cooled early Vanagon) the best choice or is there a better 091/1 or 094 box? 2wd
I realize there are 4.57 and 4.14 gear sets available for the later boxes.
TIA,
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2331
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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Al, I rebuilt a DK tranny for my ALH TDI engine back in 2012. Some of the details are in previous posts in this Thread.
Fast forward to the moment, it's been almost 6 years ago and over 80k miles later. The tranny is fine! However, I did pull the tranny to install a pilot shaft to accept the TDI clutch disc (28 splines). The Vanagon clutch will eventually fail (at least mine did). Scroll thru my photos to see it. Also, I am using a LUK DMF, smooth, no rattling... perfect, in my opinion.
Back to the DK rebuild. The melted bearing cage in your tranny is likely the result of running low on oil. They do get hot. But, a properly maintained tranny will go for many miles with the OE style plastic retainers. I never thought twice about going back with that style of bearing.
Lastly, I did my rebuild without all the special tools. So, you should breeze thru the job having all the specialty tools.
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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x2 ^^ I'd say the only time a cage will actually melt is when the oil level is quite low. That said, Rancho will install a highly modified-to-fit metal caged mainshaft bearing upon request.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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| gears wrote: |
| x2 ^^ I'd say the only time a cage will actually melt is when the oil level is quite low. That said, Rancho will install a highly modified-to-fit metal caged mainshaft bearing upon request. |
Anybody have them "ala carte"?
I'm the world's 2nd biggest tightwad, what new German made bearings go for, I'm very inclined to use USED German bearings if they pass inspection.
And my survey is VERY tainted, seeing as how most all the ones I look at are broken cores.
And I know heating is an issue, but not so much at 100 hp.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 091 DM transmission (early diesel) |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
Al, I rebuilt a DK tranny for my ALH TDI engine back in 2012. Some of the details are in previous posts in this Thread.
Fast forward to the moment, it's been almost 6 years ago and over 80k miles later. The tranny is fine! ... Also, I am using a LUK DMF, smooth, no rattling... perfect, in my opinion.
... |
That seems like VERY GOOD idea. I think considering almost every manufacturer went to some dual mass on its manual trans flywheels, is a recognition of a problem.
Especially as boost goes up the torsional shock on a diesel shaft might be very many times as much as a petrol engine.
Later efforts with Peizo electric injectors or other means of multie stage injection have been to reduce noise, but the same thing making the noise is making the torsional shock.
What is involved with the DMF install?
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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