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68IHscout
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 3122
Location: santa ana ca
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 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:13 am Post subject: Starter solenoid? |
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| On my second starter (rebuilt) once in a while the starter fails to engage i can hear the solenoid click but the starter does not engage ,battery fully charged we push start it and the starter will work for about a week more less then it happens again ,could this be the solenoid any input would appreciated |
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mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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Could be a solenoid issue, but more likely it's either a problem with getting sufficient volts/amps to the solenoid (wiring problems), or a mechanical problem with the starter bushing.
Did you replace the starter bushing when you replaced the starter? Have you verified you are getting 12V to terminal 50 on the solenoid when you turn the ignition to START?
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68IHscout
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 3122
Location: santa ana ca
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| Forgot to mention ,it is a 74 sb ill check the wiring and volts. |
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heimlich 
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6616
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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Could be the wiring. Keep up with the push starting and you will be replacing the clutch too.
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:51 am Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| kawfee wrote: |
| Could be the wiring. Keep up with the push starting and you will be replacing the clutch too. |
Push starting a car will have absolutely no ill effects on the clutch. Especially since a stock clutch is designed to handle 60+ HP. How much force can three people have on push starting a bug? Maybe a third of a HP.
As far as your starting problem, You need to safely jack up the car and take two voltage readings. Have someone turn the starter over and measure the voltage at the starter solenoid. During the same process, you also want to measure the voltage where the battery cable connects to the starter. Give us these numbers, and we can go from there. In reality, a current (amps) measurement would be better, but most people don't have a meter that can do this.
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68IHscout
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 3122
Location: santa ana ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| kawfee wrote: |
| Could be the wiring. Keep up with the push starting and you will be replacing the clutch too. |
with in the last year i push started the car 2 times |
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68IHscout
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 3122
Location: santa ana ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| Multi69 , should the wire to starter be disconnected from solenoid when i run the starter test? |
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68IHscout
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 3122
Location: santa ana ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| Multi69s wrote: |
| kawfee wrote: |
| Could be the wiring. Keep up with the push starting and you will be replacing the clutch too. |
Push starting a car will have absolutely no ill effects on the clutch. Especially since a stock clutch is designed to handle 60+ HP. How much force can three people have on push starting a bug? Maybe a third of a HP.
As far as your starting problem, You need to safely jack up the car and take two voltage readings. Have someone turn the starter over and measure the voltage at the starter solenoid. During the same process, you also want to measure the voltage where the battery cable connects to the starter. Give us these numbers, and we can go from there. In reality, a current (amps) measurement would be better, but most people don't have a meter that can do this. |
the wire at solenoid (disconected from starter )measurea 11.6v when turning key to starter ,the big wire to starter measures 12.3 v |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| 68IHscout wrote: |
| Multi69s wrote: |
| kawfee wrote: |
| Could be the wiring. Keep up with the push starting and you will be replacing the clutch too. |
Push starting a car will have absolutely no ill effects on the clutch. Especially since a stock clutch is designed to handle 60+ HP. How much force can three people have on push starting a bug? Maybe a third of a HP.
As far as your starting problem, You need to safely jack up the car and take two voltage readings. Have someone turn the starter over and measure the voltage at the starter solenoid. During the same process, you also want to measure the voltage where the battery cable connects to the starter. Give us these numbers, and we can go from there. In reality, a current (amps) measurement would be better, but most people don't have a meter that can do this. |
the wire at solenoid (disconected from starter )measurea 11.6v when turning key to starter ,the big wire to starter measures 12.3 v |
Now measure the voltage on the same terminal from the key switch with the wire connected to starter. make sure Bug is very secured, in neutral, attach your test leads and attempt to start her. observe voltage, it will drop a lot, but how much?
by meauring the voltage under load, rather than ot underload, as was done in your first test, you can determine if the circuit is capable of delievering enough current (amps) to operate the solinoid. a bad circuit with say a crummy single strand of wire left from the key switch, can deliver a full 12 volts when tested not under load, same for a dirty contact, or loose crimp joint.
Now even though that tiny single strand of wire delivered 12 volts under no load, the moment you put a load on it, such as having it attempt to operate the solinoid, or maybe light a bulb, or turn a motor, the moment a load is put across, if the supply circuit, the input wires, are not good enough, big enough, clean enough, crimped enough, etc.. then load draws the voltage down, this we call VOLTAGE DROP. now a fat wire with good connections will also give a nice 12 volt reading un loaded, but when you load it, that fat wire and clean contacts flow the large current need with ease, so there is very little drop in the voltge.
So retest with someome cranking the key switch tostart, and observe if you have lot of drop or not. If little drop is found, then you KNOW you key switch, and all the associated wireing is probably just fine. If you get a huge drop, thatbis an indiaction of either a short in the circuit to ground, or a bad connection in the circuit
goodmluck, now hunt down for drops! Bug On!
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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It's always a great idea to remove the transmission ground strap and clean it squeaky clean and to bright metal. Reinstall it. The, remove all the wires from the starter posts and clean them squeaky clean and to bright metal. If your battery cables are old, replace them. They are not expensive and they make a BIG difference in getting the proper voltage to the starter.
While you have the wires loose at the starter, make sure the connections are solid with no corrosion in them.
Most often doing these things above will dramatically improve starter issues.
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68IHscout
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 3122
Location: santa ana ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| 68IHscout wrote: |
| Multi69s wrote: |
| kawfee wrote: |
| Could be the wiring. Keep up with the push starting and you will be replacing the clutch too. |
Push starting a car will have absolutely no ill effects on the clutch. Especially since a stock clutch is designed to handle 60+ HP. How much force can three people have on push starting a bug? Maybe a third of a HP.
As far as your starting problem, You need to safely jack up the car and take two voltage readings. Have someone turn the starter over and measure the voltage at the starter solenoid. During the same process, you also want to measure the voltage where the battery cable connects to the starter. Give
us these numbers, and we can go from there. In reality, a current (amps) measurement would be better, but most people don't have a meter that can do this. |
the wire at solenoid (disconected from starter )measurea 11.6v when turning key to starter ,the big wire to starter measures 12.3 v |
Now measure the voltage on the same terminal from the key switch with the wire connected to starter. make sure Bug is very secured, in neutral, attach your test leads and attempt to start her. observe voltage, it will drop a lot, but how much?
by meauring the voltage under load, rather than ot underload, as was done in your first test, you can determine if the circuit is capable of delievering enough current (amps) to operate the solinoid. a bad circuit with say a crummy single strand of wire left from the key switch, can deliver a full 12 volts when tested not under load, same for a dirty contact, or loose crimp joint.
Now even though that tiny single strand of wire delivered 12 volts under no load, the moment you put a load on it, such as having it attempt to operate the solinoid, or maybe light a bulb, or turn a motor, the moment a load is put across, if the supply circuit, the input wires, are not good enough, big enough, clean enough, crimped enough, etc.. then load draws the voltage down, this we call VOLTAGE DROP. now a fat wire with good connections will also give a nice 12 volt reading un loaded, but when you load it, that fat wire and clean contacts flow the large current need with ease, so there is very little drop in the voltge.
So retest with someome cranking the key switch tostart, and observe if you have lot of drop or not. If little drop is found, then you KNOW you key switch, and all the associated wireing is probably just fine. If you get a huge drop, thatbis an indiaction of either a short in the circuit to ground, or a bad connection in the circuit
goodmluck, now hunt down for drops! Bug On! |
with wire hooked up to solenoid and working the starter it drops to 6.5 under load |
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68IHscout
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 3122
Location: santa ana ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
It's always a great idea to remove the transmission ground strap and clean it squeaky clean and to bright metal. Reinstall it. The, remove all the wires from the starter posts and clean them squeaky clean and to bright metal. If your battery cables are old, replace them. They are not expensive and they make a BIG difference in getting the proper voltage to the starter.
While you have the wires loose at the starter, make sure the connections are solid with no corrosion in them.
Most often doing these things above will dramatically improve starter issues. |
ground strap is new and clean ,negative at battery is alao new and clean ,positive cable is good and clean |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31378
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| 68IHscout wrote: |
| with wire hooked up to solenoid and working the starter it drops to 6.5 under load |
Yipes - should be over 9.6 volts (measured across battery terminals) while trying to start. So suspect a battery that fails under load.
Did you try a jump start from a running vehicle?
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68IHscout
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 3122
Location: santa ana ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| 68IHscout wrote: |
| with wire hooked up to solenoid and working the starter it drops to 6.5 under load |
Yipes - should be over 9.6 volts (measured across battery terminals) while trying to start. So suspect a battery that fails under load.
Did you try a jump start from a running vehicle? |
i just fixed a small connection and now under load it givea me little over 9.5 |
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68IHscout
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 3122
Location: santa ana ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| 68IHscout wrote: |
| Cusser wrote: |
| 68IHscout wrote: |
| with wire hooked up to solenoid and working the starter it drops to 6.5 under load |
Yipes - should be over 9.6 volts (measured across battery terminals) while trying to start. So suspect a battery that fails under load.
Did you try a jump start from a running vehicle? |
i just fixed a small connection and now under load it givea me little over 9.5 |
no jumping from other vehicle , i tested the battery under load it drops to 10.4 with a nice starter crank, it stopped working so i smacked the starter solenoid and it cranks fine after that |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| 68IHscout wrote: |
| 68IHscout wrote: |
| Cusser wrote: |
| 68IHscout wrote: |
| with wire hooked up to solenoid and working the starter it drops to 6.5 under load |
Yipes - should be over 9.6 volts (measured across battery terminals) while trying to start. So suspect a battery that fails under load.
Did you try a jump start from a running vehicle? |
i just fixed a small connection and now under load it givea me little over 9.5 |
no jumping from other vehicle , i tested the battery under load it drops to 10.4 with a nice starter crank, it stopped working so i smacked the starter solenoid and it cranks fine after that |
But still no start?? Or is it working now?
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68IHscout
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 3122
Location: santa ana ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| 68IHscout wrote: |
| 68IHscout wrote: |
| Cusser wrote: |
| 68IHscout wrote: |
| with wire hooked up to solenoid and working the starter it drops to 6.5 under load |
Yipes - should be over 9.6 volts (measured across battery terminals) while trying to start. So suspect a battery that fails under load.
Did you try a jump start from a running vehicle? |
i just fixed a small connection and now under load it givea me little over 9.5 |
no jumping from other vehicle , i tested the battery under load it drops to 10.4 with a nice starter crank, it stopped working so i smacked the starter solenoid and it cranks fine after that |
But still no start?? Or is it working now? |
it starts fine ,just once in a while the solenoid has a tantrum and it doesn't want to work |
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4025
Location: WA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| Replace the solenoid they are cheap, yours has a problem internal, rust, varnish, etc. and sticks every so often, or think of the health benefits of pushing and run with it. |
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68IHscout
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 3122
Location: santa ana ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Starter solenoid? |
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| Starbucket wrote: |
| Replace the solenoid they are cheap, yours has a problem internal, rust, varnish, etc. and sticks every so often, or think of the health benefits of pushing and run with it. |
will do |
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