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BillJohnson
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Lake Forest Park, WA
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 Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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Just trying to get a handle on what just happened. Some background first: I began noticing a new noise coming from the engine. I erroneously thought it might be the alternator (my mechanic's helper had recently replaced a broken bracket on it not that long ago. The alternator had to come out to fix it) because of the sound and because the battery light stayed on just a little bit longer than usual when I started it up. Took it in and he was unable to recognize the sound apart from the rest of the engine noises. Odd, because I could hear it clearly. He checked out the electrical and everything checked out, but recommended a new battery (perhaps thinking that the battery light indicated a failing battery). He then sent me on my way.
I continued to hear this new noise and noticed that the battery light was staying on a little longer now after start up. Didn't make sense to me. It was bugging me, though. What's going on?
Then last Saturday night on the way to the movies, I started it up and the battery light did not go off. Should have left it in the driveway, but thought, perhaps, it would go out by itself.
Got on the freeway (not far from home), and the light wouldn't go off. I was close to the exit ramp (maybe four miles from home) and then, to my alarm, I noticed that the temperature gauge showed the needle somewhere around 230 or 240! I drove it a little further to the nearest parking lot and by that time, there was smoke exiting the engine compartment. Shit!
I immediately stopped the bus and called AAA for a tow. The tow guy pointed out to me that the fan was completely loose, had broken free, and was grinding up against the cover plate. Oil spray, too, was on the inside and outside of the bus.
My mechanic is assuming that because the temperature was up around 230 or so that the engine is toast and that I will need a complete rebuild. I'm assuming he's likely right. I wonder what you guys think happened to cause such a massive fail? I am a little pissed that my mechanic was unable to recognize the noise and just sent me on my way. The noise, in retrospect, was not coming from the alternator, but from the fan assembly. Was
I have had ongoing mechanical issues of one kind or another with this bus over the years and it has cost me an arm and a leg to keep it going. Most recent big expense was getting rid of my Delortos (the dreaded "drip") and buying new Webers. I know that I will need to get a rebuild to sell this thing if I want to get anything for it.
Any other advice you can offer would be appreciated, as always!
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1979 Type 2 w/ Weber 40 IDF carbs
2003 Jetta TDI |
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crownline
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2010
Posts: 593
Location: Northwoods of WI
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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One question. Did you ever learn how to work on you Bus or just take it in to be "fixed" by a mechanic. The Most important thing and best in my opinion is learning every sure inch of my bus and how things are supposed to work.
The fan issue is something that should have been noticed when the alternator was out or when the belt was re-adjusted. Don't just fix the engine to "sell it" Learn about it. If you love it the bus will love you back. Just my 2 cents.
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1972 Bus 1700 cc Single Carb. But not a progressive.
Barelymuvin
Wish I still had the ones I got rid of.
"It"s got some dings and dents and neither of us is going to SEMA."(Update, I went to SEMA in 2019 but the Bus stayed home)
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NoBudgetVWGarage
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2008
Posts: 755
Location: Quartz Hill,CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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Sounds like the fan hub may be damaged. There are a couple of seals behind it that will cause the oil to come out if damaged.
Take off the fan - inspect for damage/broken fins etc..
Remove fan hub and inspect for damage
replace the front seal AND O-Ring
Re-Assemble
220-230 oil temps are a little high, but if not driven too long engine should be okay.
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1969 Transporter
1968 Ghia
1959 Ghia Hot VW Drag Car |
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jtauxe 
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004
Posts: 5780
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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I'm going to guess that for whatever reason the fan started failing, and that it then stopped turning the alternator, which is why the battery light would not go out.
You are correct that you should have hit the pause button when the battery light started misbehaving, and looked into it. I totally get it, though, and I have done similar stuff, thinking, "Well, this must just be something intermittent, and the bus will sort itself out." That does not generally happen, of course. It usually gets worse.
As for an engine rebuild -- maybe, or maybe not. The temperature does not sound particularly high. But it will need to get pulled and checked, just to see if everything is OK (best case) or if there is major trouble. One mystery to be solved is why the fan came loose in the first place. Maybe it got pushed around or bent or something during the alternator work?
I would find a new mechanic, for starters.
| BillJohnson wrote: |
...
I have had ongoing mechanical issues of one kind or another with this bus over the years and it has cost me an arm and a leg to keep it going.
... |
I'm sorry, but this just made me chuckle, in the midst of your tale of woe. Because I have felt this way at one time or another about every bus I have owned. 
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John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD
Last edited by jtauxe on Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BillJohnson
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Lake Forest Park, WA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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| crownline wrote: |
One question. Did you ever learn how to work on you Bus or just take it in to be "fixed" by a mechanic. The Most important thing and best in my opinion is learning every sure inch of my bus and how things are supposed to work.
The fan issue is something that should have been noticed when the alternator was out or when the belt was re-adjusted. Don't just fix the engine to "sell it" Learn about it. If you love it the bus will love you back. Just my 2 cents. |
In an ideal world, that would be great. Unfortunately, I have a lot of other things going on in my life that demand my attention, family and work being two of them. I also don't have the luxury of a garage or the money for the tools needed. It's a question of priority. The bus has been a work van for my business, a daily driver. I do minor repairs on it myself when I can. Something this big is beyond my scope , i.e., dropping the engine, tearing it down, rebuilding it, etc.
Some guys make it their #1 hobby to do everything on their bus themselves. That's great, but it's not a viable alternative for me. I'm barely able to keep everything else on an even keel in my life with little to no extra time to spare. Everyone's life is different.
I post on here because of guys (like you?) who do make their cars their #1 priority. I've learned a lot from them, but I am not someone who has the time to be one of them. A little understanding goes a long way.
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1979 Type 2 w/ Weber 40 IDF carbs
2003 Jetta TDI |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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this is a guess - the pulley or pulley key failed on the alternator and that caused the cascade. The engine may be salvageable if that is fixed. It is also possible that the engine pulley came loose and that is what you heard. You need a new mechanic. I would not trust yours at all. Sorry to be cold about it but I have seen this type mechanic before. Either he can't troubleshoot, doesn't have the time, has really bad hearing, or saw more money in it if he kept his mouth closed. Anyway you look at it, you want someone else to work on your bus. Now is a good time to learn how to cover basic things yourself regarding this bus.
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BillJohnson
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Lake Forest Park, WA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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| jtauxe wrote: |
I'm going to guess that for whatever reason the fan started failing, and that it then stopped turning the alternator, which is why the battery light would not go out.
You are correct that you should have hit the pause button when the battery light started misbehaving, and looked into it. I totally get it, though, and I have done similar stuff, thinking, "Well, this must just be something intermittent, and the bus will sort itself out." That does not generally happen, of course. It usually gets worse.
As for an engine rebuild -- maybe, or maybe not. The temperature does not sound particularly high. But it will need to get pulled and checked, just to see if everything is OK (best case) or if there is major trouble. One mystery to be solved is why the fan came loose in the first place. Maybe it got pushed around or bent or something during the alternator work?
I would find a new mechanic, for starters.
| BillJohnson wrote: |
...
I have had ongoing mechanical issues of one kind or another with this bus over the years and it has cost me an arm and a leg to keep it going.
... |
I'm sorry, but this just made me chuckle, in the midst of your tale of woe. Because I have felt this way at one time or another about every bus I have owned. |
Yeah, I figured that the fan "coming loose," breaking free, etc. caused the alternator to stop spinning. That explains the battery light, I think. Of course, you're right about continuing to drive the bus with the battery light on, but one other recent time that happened was due to the alternator bracket breaking which resulted in the alternator unable to charge the battery. It was an inconvenience, but not catastrophic.
Yes, why did the fan come loose? I have the same question. They had to drop the engine, I believe, just to replace the alternator bracket. Maybe you're right; there's a connection there?
As for your chuckle, yes, I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. :0) You always assume, though, that all this mechanical shit that seems to occur on a regular basis to "tour bus" is because you just happen to be saddled with a lemon, when, in point of fact, most of us are dealing with this stuff on a regular basis. I get it. Makes me chuckle, too.
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1979 Type 2 w/ Weber 40 IDF carbs
2003 Jetta TDI |
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BillJohnson
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Lake Forest Park, WA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| this is a guess - the pulley or pulley key failed on the alternator and that caused the cascade. The engine may be salvageable if that is fixed. It is also possible that the engine pulley came loose and that is what you heard. You need a new mechanic. I would not trust yours at all. Sorry to be cold about it but I have seen this type mechanic before. Either he can't troubleshoot, doesn't have the time, has really bad hearing, or saw more money in it if he kept his mouth closed. Anyway you look at it, you want someone else to work on your bus. Now is a good time to learn how to cover basic things yourself regarding this bus. |
I can turn the alternator by hand. I think engine pulley might be more likely. I live in Seattle and there are hardly any reputable VW air-cooled mechanics around these days. Lots of guys my age (mid-60's) are retiring or have retired.
Yeah. I think he did not have the time to troubleshoot it and was only thinking of checking out the electrical system.
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2003 Jetta TDI |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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The fan is driven by the crankshaft. If this is conventional 1979 type 4 motor there are a key, hub, and bolts involved. You don't need to pull the engine to inspect it. You may need to pull the engine, even completely rebuild it if there is damage to the crankshaft.
photos samba gallery
Keyway that holds pulley as well as tension from bolt. Ignore yellow arrow
hub bolted to crankshaft
fan slid onto crankshaft, the bolt and a big special washer hold the hub
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BillJohnson
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Lake Forest Park, WA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
The fan is driven by the crankshaft. If this is conventional 1979 type 4 motor there are a key, hub, and bolts involved. You don't need to pull the engine to inspect it. You may need to pull the engine, even completely rebuild it if there is damage to the crankshaft.
photos samba gallery
Keyway that holds pulley as well as tension from bolt. Ignore yellow arrow
hub bolted to crankshaft
fan slid onto crankshaft, the bolt and a big special washer hold the hub
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Thanks for the info and pics. Very helpful and much appreciated.
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2003 Jetta TDI |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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two reasons that might have happened - center bolt came loose and the key sheered, or the crankshaft broke (uncommon).
The question will be did the hub gall the nose of the crankshaft? It is possible something got pulled into the fan and sheared the key. This is what a woodruff key looks like. The key and friction stop the hub from spinning.
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jtauxe
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Joined: September 30, 2004
Posts: 5780
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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I also like Steve's suggestion that it could have been a missing woodruff key on the alternator, instead. In fact, it is a bit more likely, since there was alternator work done recently. Here's the scenario:
On transferring the pulley from the old alternator to the new, somebody forgot the woodruff key.
Alternator sorta works enough to pass a test, but it is not really engaging the shaft full time (which is the function of the woodruff key). Especially if the pulley is nutted down nice and tight.
It could function that on start, the pulley is slow to "engage" the shaft on the alternator. After it heats up a bit from friction, the metal expands enough to engage it.
You drive like this for awhile, and eventually, the shaft of the alternator and the pulley have just worn on each other too much, or the nut has backed off, and there is a point where there is no engagement. This happens out on the highway.
Something bad happens after that, causing all hell to break loose back there. Maybe the pulley finally "welded" itself to the alternator shaft, and it really grabbed that belt, and pulled the heck out of that crankshaft fan pulley, and things went downhill from there.
Just a theory.
All for lack of a woodruff key.
BTW, you do not have to pull the engine to replace the alternator bracket. That mechanic took you for a ride, or was incompetent on this engine.
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John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD
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BillJohnson
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Lake Forest Park, WA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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| jtauxe wrote: |
I also like Steve's suggestion that it could have been a missing woodruff key on the alternator, instead. In fact, it is a bit more likely, since there was alternator work done recently. Here's the scenario:
On transferring the pulley from the old alternator to the new, somebody forgot the woodruff key.
Alternator sorta works enough to pass a test, but it is not really engaging the shaft full time (which is the function of the woodruff key). Especially if the pulley is nutted down nice and tight.
It could function that on start, the pulley is slow to "engage" the shaft on the alternator. After it heats up a bit from friction, the metal expands enough to engage it.
You drive like this for awhile, and eventually, the shaft of the alternator and the pulley have just worn on each other too much, or the nut has backed off, and there is a point where there is no engagement. This happens out on the highway.
Something bad happens after that, causing all hell to break loose back there. Maybe the pulley finally "welded" itself to the alternator shaft, and it really grabbed that belt, and pulled the heck out of that crankshaft fan pulley, and things went downhill from there.
Just a theory.
All for lack of a woodruff key.
BTW, you do not have to pull the engine to replace the alternator bracket. That mechanic took you for a ride, or was incompetent on this engine. |
Well, the alternator actually wasn't worked on; it only needed a new bracket. The alternator is about four years old. Ergo, there was no pulley transfer. Seems unlikely that we can point to a missing woodruff key. All the evidence points to the fan which clearly isn't attached to the camshaft anymore.
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2003 Jetta TDI |
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NoBudgetVWGarage
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Joined: November 27, 2008
Posts: 755
Location: Quartz Hill,CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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The Fan bolts to the Fan hub via 3 bolts - Are they there? Stripped?
The Fan hub bolts to the crankshaft via 1 center bolt. Is the bolt there? Stripped?
There is also a woodruff key for the fan hub.. but it sounds as if one of the 2 above is your problem.
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1968 Ghia
1959 Ghia Hot VW Drag Car |
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orwell84
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Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 2538
Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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| Don't beat yourself up. My first thought seeing that light would be bad regulator, alternator, wiring and not "the fan is about to fly off the crank". You did well pulling off when you saw the oil temp got high and 220-240 is really not that high. Whether you need a rebuild depends on whether the crank snout or case got damaged. I agree that you should look for a new mechanic. |
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BillJohnson
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Lake Forest Park, WA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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| NoBudgetVWGarage wrote: |
The Fan bolts to the Fan hub via 3 bolts - Are they there? Stripped?
The Fan hub bolts to the crankshaft via 1 center bolt. Is the bolt there? Stripped?
There is also a woodruff key for the fan hub.. but it sounds as if one of the 2 above is your problem. |
Thanks for posting. I'll check it out and get back to you.
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1979 Type 2 w/ Weber 40 IDF carbs
2003 Jetta TDI |
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BillJohnson
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Lake Forest Park, WA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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| orwell84 wrote: |
| Don't beat yourself up. My first thought seeing that light would be bad regulator, alternator, wiring and not "the fan is about to fly off the crank". You did well pulling off when you saw the oil temp got high and 220-240 is really not that high. Whether you need a rebuild depends on whether the crank snout or case got damaged. I agree that you should look for a new mechanic. |
Thanks for giving me a bit of a break. I learn a lot from you guys. For example, the temp not being as bad as I imagined.
I wish I had a reputable replacement for my mechanic.
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2003 Jetta TDI |
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thesatanicmechanic
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Joined: November 30, 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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That was your engine oil temperature guage?
That oil temperature is nothing. What should concern you is the cylinder head temperature. You could be looking at heads, pistons, and cylinders. |
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sjbartnik
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Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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| BillJohnson wrote: |
| J He checked out the electrical and everything checked out, but recommended a new battery (perhaps thinking that the battery light indicated a failing battery). |
At the very least you're gonna need to find a competent mechanic, not one who doesn't even understand the basics of how the battery light works and what it indicates.
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at? |
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This is a type 4 engine isn't it? If someone forgot the key when it was rebuilt the load of the alternator could have been enough to spin the hub on the crank. The fan does not need to come off on a T4 in order to replace the alternator or work on it. If however this is a European bus or a 1979 Frankenstein bus with an upright T1 motor then the fan is driven by the alternator.
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