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TryToBeOriginal
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012
Posts: 266
Location: Georgetown, Texas
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 Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:09 pm Post subject: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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Hey All,
I have been out of the VW game since the floods 2 years ago wiped out my 69' I was restoring. I finally decided to get back into it with this 1963. Looks to be originally Gulf Blue.
Here are the photos the seller had posted before I bought it.
And here it is once I got her home (2 days there and 9 hour drive back)
Looks to have the original matching engine and the windshield has a sticker showing the last time it was registered was 1983.
Surpisingly, the A pillars are solid and the passenger heater channel is all there just need floor boards and a driver side heater channel.
Working on getting a title for it then I will start the build. Until that time I am going to just slowly take it apart leaving just the engine and VIN numbers for the title inspection.
Has anyone been through the bonded title process? Any tips?
Thanks |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24732
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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Nice project!! Looks like one that should restore beautifully!
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In Stereo, Where Available! |
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Pruneman99
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:46 am Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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| I bonded a title in Arizona once, but every state is different. Good luck on your build. Keep us posted. |
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TryToBeOriginal
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012
Posts: 266
Location: Georgetown, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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Been working through it over the weekend now that I'm back in town. Managed to get the fenders off with only one pulled captive nut. Started pulling out the interior for clean up but saw some stuff I was not familiar with. Anyone have any ideas what the nuts are on the tunnel right below the shifter? They are on both sides of the tunnel and I didn't see anything looking through the owners manuals.
Also what are the holes for under the dash? You can see a flat head screw in the passenger side one on the photo above but the driver side it open.
Lastly I was working on the parcel tray inside and hit my shin on two bolts coming through from the underside. Anyone know what this is?
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nlorntson
Crazy VW Lady
Joined: March 13, 2004
Posts: 3783
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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No idea on the tunnel bolts. They should not be there. Maybe some sort of center console/cup holder was installed?
Screws under the dash are also not stock. Maybe from a previous radio install?
Device under package shelf looks like a hard start relay. Also not stock and not needed if your grounds are clean and tight. |
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TryToBeOriginal
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012
Posts: 266
Location: Georgetown, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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| nlorntson wrote: |
No idea on the tunnel bolts. They should not be there. Maybe some sort of center console/cup holder was installed?
Screws under the dash are also not stock. Maybe from a previous radio install?
Device under package shelf looks like a hard start relay. Also not stock and not needed if your grounds are clean and tight. |
Thanks. I'll pull off the tunnel bolts and weld up the 2 holes when I get to that stage.
Also good to know about the hard start relay. I'll remove that and check out all the wiring once I get all the body metal fixed. |
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TryToBeOriginal
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012
Posts: 266
Location: Georgetown, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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So I started digging into the bondo I saw on the passenger side in front of the A pillar. Looks like this entire front quarter panel was replaced at one time but with the original gulf blue.
Under the fender and inside of the panel is the OG paint so either someone replaced this panel with and OG one or they were really good at pain matching. If you look at the inside of the panel it was all brass bar welded back together instead of using spot welds. Normally I wouldn't care except that the panel was put in about half an inch too far. If you look at the photos below you can see the panel isn't on the same plane as the door and they must have messed the entire seam up.
Any guesses on how to correct this other than completely removing the panel and trying again?
Also I assume this is the original hood but the hood follow the curve on the passenger side and over hangs the body on the driver side by 3/4" or more.
Trying to decide the best course of action and would love to hear some ideas.
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clarkster75
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2006
Posts: 161
Location: Lots of good clean livin' Utah
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:38 am Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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Cool. Your car is about the same condition, and year, as mine.
As far as the hood hanging over...
Maybe a bit of string on the washer/sprayer (center of windshield) to the center of the front bumper/apron would allow to you establish a centerline to measure from side to side.
Guessing that either the hood hinges are off, or the front aprons are off but if you can measure from the centerline, each side, that may tell you what is off.
Or, look at the edge contour of the hood to see if that was bent. Maybe make a cardboard/paper contour to check the sides of the hood. Maybe contour of inside would be better when you check.
Regrettably, you will have to re-weld that front quarter to match the door. Its late but I can't think of a "better" way to realign.
There was a page/two in the Muir/Idots guide on how the relay underneath your car allowed the ignition to work a lot better, and how to wire all that, but rarely seen on bugs.
Keep up the good work... congrats. |
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TryToBeOriginal
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012
Posts: 266
Location: Georgetown, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:09 am Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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| nlorntson wrote: |
No idea on the tunnel bolts. They should not be there. Maybe some sort of center console/cup holder was installed?
Screws under the dash are also not stock. Maybe from a previous radio install?
Device under package shelf looks like a hard start relay. Also not stock and not needed if your grounds are clean and tight. |
ended up taking that off last night and it was a piece of all thread that was shoved through the tunnel and bent up. I am suspecting you were right with the center console cup holder.
| clarkster75 wrote: |
Cool. Your car is about the same condition, and year, as mine.
As far as the hood hanging over...
Maybe a bit of string on the washer/sprayer (center of windshield) to the center of the front bumper/apron would allow to you establish a centerline to measure from side to side.
Guessing that either the hood hinges are off, or the front aprons are off but if you can measure from the centerline, each side, that may tell you what is off.
Or, look at the edge contour of the hood to see if that was bent. Maybe make a cardboard/paper contour to check the sides of the hood. Maybe contour of inside would be better when you check.
Regrettably, you will have to re-weld that front quarter to match the door. Its late but I can't think of a "better" way to realign.
There was a page/two in the Muir/Idots guide on how the relay underneath your car allowed the ignition to work a lot better, and how to wire all that, but rarely seen on bugs.
Keep up the good work... congrats. |
I managed to take the hood off last night and it looks clean and original but I am guessing this car took a hard hit to the front passenger side at one point a long time ago. the font apron, spare tire tray and washer fluid tray have all been re-welded back to the car as well as a replacement quarter panel. All of this was when it was still original Gulf Blue because the bondo is under all the layers of paint.
I ended up peeling back the seam and looking where the quarter matches and it looks like they just set it there and left it, didn't even tuck it into the seam. How are these normally in there? Spot welded to the door frame skin then folded over?
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57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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Re. . . . the piece of all thread . . . take yer shifter off . . . look and see if the shift rod bushing/hanger need replacing!
As for the quarter panel/drip rail . . . from the factory, the quarter panel was spot welded to the hinge pillar BEFORE the drip rail was crimped closed. You already know that it was spot welded to the heater channel, fuel support channel, front cross member, and trunk panels. The quarter panel was originally brazed at the factory in the short section where it meets the cowl . . . between the hinge area forward to the opening for the trunk . . . NO where else.
I have done a pair of quarter panels . . . fairly big job.
Your job is probably more difficult because you must clean-up a crappy (failed!) previous repair!
In what manner is the quarter panel attached along the drip rail/hinge pillar now . . . brazed? weld? gravity?
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Jesucristo es mi Seņor y Salvador! |
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TryToBeOriginal
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012
Posts: 266
Location: Georgetown, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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| 57BLITZ wrote: |
Re. . . . the piece of all thread . . . take yer shifter off . . . look and see if the shift rod bushing/hanger need replacing!
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Good call. I will say it shifts very smooth with little play. wouldn't surprise me if someone had to replace it for that reason. I'll double check it for sure.
| 57BLITZ wrote: |
As for the quarter panel/drip rail . . . from the factory, the quarter panel was spot welded to the hinge pillar BEFORE the drip rail was crimped closed. You already know that it was spot welded to the heater channel, fuel support channel, front cross member, and trunk panels. The quarter panel was originally brazed at the factory in the short section where it meets the cowl . . . between the hinge area forward to the opening for the trunk . . . NO where else.
I have done a pair of quarter panels . . . fairly big job.
Your job is probably more difficult because you must clean-up a crappy (failed!) previous repair!
In what manner is the quarter panel attached along the drip rail/hinge pillar now . . . brazed? weld? gravity?
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Let me start by saying I HATE Brass Bar welding. the quarter is connected by really shitty brass bar welding to everything under the hood. As well as welded in the short section where it meets the cowl.
It doesn't look like it is connected anywhere around the seam, just sitting there. I can't really see anything with all the layers of paint and don't have a wire wheel currently. I am having to buy all new tools for this build so I am spacing out the purchases in paychecks. I managed to get all the wrenches, pliers, sockets and such but no power tools. Next on the list is Hobart 140, angle grinder and shit tons of cut off/abrasive wheels and a twisted wire wheel.
I may ping you through out this process since this is the first quarter panel I have done. I have done floors and heater channels but nothing front end. Any bracing I need to do before I start removing the panel to re-situate? |
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57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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You will probably want to remove the panel from the car so that you can clean off all the braze , , , and try to get the quarter panel itself straight! I don't envy you for having to do it, but it will be for the best.
Bracing should not be necessary . . . certainly not when there is question as to whether or not the front end is straight right now.
Get the "drip rail" open . . . . about as open as you have it next to the hinge.
Try to avoid splitting it!
Clean it up in there and you might be able to find where the spot welds are (were) located . . . there's maybe 10 of 'em.
I drilled small holes there . . . I plug-welded the quarter panel to the hinge pillar using those holes . . .
I stuffed shims (small blocks of wood) into the "Bermuda Triangle" to hold the quarter panel in the proper position (fully engaged in the drip rail) while I welded.
You will need to braze the quarter/cowl joint . . . add just enough brass to join the panels . . . do NOT fill over the entire seam like it is now! When it is done correctly, there should be nothing but a VERY THIN line of braze in the groove.
At that point, get yer door aligned! The hinge pillar can be moved slightly to get the gap you want. 
Finish the welding with ONE plug-weld up front. . . check the door gap . . . repeat several more times, then put in another hundred or so plug-welds!
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Jesucristo es mi Seņor y Salvador! |
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TryToBeOriginal
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012
Posts: 266
Location: Georgetown, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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Well I started peeling back the seam tonight. Let me just saw VW does an AMAZING job of folding that thing over. It does not want to unfold without a lot of persuasion.
To answer your question of how the quarter panel it held in there, it looks like it is brazed at the cowl as well as a glob of braze half way down the seam. almost ripped the seam open trying to pry it open when I noticed. Hoping to go get some new tools tomorrow to make this go a little quicker and clean it up a bit.
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57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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Once ya get the quarter panel off, you will have room to clean-up the drip rail with a hammer/dolly.
Wondering . . . are ya going to salvage that quarter panel or do you have a replacement?
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Jesucristo es mi Seņor y Salvador! |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24732
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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When a piece of metal is bent back and forth, it gets what is called work hardened. Bend it a few more times, it will probably begin to crack and break off, because it has gotten so hard.
One can soften up the steel by heating the area and letting it cool down slowly.
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Bryan67
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2003
Posts: 2939
Location: Fresno, Ca.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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I`m sorry, but is that the best car you could find?
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TryToBeOriginal
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012
Posts: 266
Location: Georgetown, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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| 57BLITZ wrote: |
Once ya get the quarter panel off, you will have room to clean-up the drip rail with a hammer/dolly.
Wondering . . . are ya going to salvage that quarter panel or do you have a replacement? |
Planning on salvaging. the Quarter is clean, not dented, and straight. I think it was NOS when it was added to the car. Only reason I am doing this is because it was installed wrong last time. Gonna go grab a MAP torch tomorrow and see if I can melt off the braze. Funny enough I realized today why they didn't put the quarter back into the lip. When I opened it up the old one where it was spot welded was still there so they didn't grind it off making it impossible to fit a new one in there.
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
When a piece of metal is bent back and forth, it gets what is called work hardened. Bend it a few more times, it will probably begin to crack and break off, because it has gotten so hard.
One can soften up the steel by heating the area and letting it cool down slowly. |
Yeah I was thinking about that when I was trying to open it up. Wife took my car today and didn't want to try and carry tools home on a motorcycle so figured I'd just call it a night and grab the torch tomorrow to heat it.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| I`m sorry, but is that the best car you could find? |
You know this car is actually in damn good shape. The drivers side has rust in the heater and rear quarter but passenger side is clean. no rust in the corners, bumper brackets are gone, pretty standard Texas Dry bug. I wanted a project car not a car that was done. For the price I am happy with what I got. If it's not your cup of tea that's fine but I enjoy getting my hands dirty and doing hard work so I'm gonna keep going. Thanks for dropping by though  |
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Bryan67
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2003
Posts: 2939
Location: Fresno, Ca.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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I`ve restored and owned lots of cars. It`s just that I like to start with a little cleaner slate I guess. no worries.
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If you`re going to do something, do it right. |
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TryToBeOriginal
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012
Posts: 266
Location: Georgetown, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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Didn't have much time this weekend but still forced myself out to the garage for an hour. I picked up a MAP torch and tried heating the braze up in hopes that I could soften the braze and just wire brush it off... Nope, the steel went red hot and the braze was just gummy. I ended up grabbing one of my old chisels and scraping off as much as I could while it was hot. Then I took a grinder to it to try and remove what rest I could without hitting the steel. now it resembles more of what it should look like from the factory but still have no idea how to separate this.
Also looks like the PO didn't either as the original quarter is sandwiched in between the cowl and new quarter.
Is anyone familiar with Braze and it's properties? I know that welds when you add them, it melts the 2 pieces and adds in filler metal causing a single piece in the end. Does Braze do the same thing or does it just fill the gap with new metal and the flux causes it to stick. Is there something I can do to remove the bond between brass/bronze (no idea what it is) and steel?
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Thread
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2017
Posts: 47
Location: Portland, Or
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: 1963 Rebuild/Resto |
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Regarding the all thread going through the center tube, I had seen a DIY somewhere (maybe here) where something similar to what you've found was a remedy for the clutch cable tube mount in that area having failed.
It was a way of avoiding having to make a large hole in the center channel to re-weld it. |
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