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Terminatez
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Joined: June 07, 2015
Posts: 340
Location: Sun Valley, CA
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 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:11 pm Post subject: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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2.0 Type 4 Engine Camper Special rebuilt w/ Dual Weber 40 IDF, Bosch 010 by Glenn; bench ran ok before installing in bus.
Only change: Transmission and Fuel source.
Used a different transmission to test the engine and it ran ok on the bench.
I have an 002 in my 72 bus, installed engine in 2 weeks ago. I have a Carter fuel pump I bought from Gary, and have a similar fuel pump/regulator combo that he's done.
Fuel tank was hot tanked, and light coated with ATF from inside to prevent rust before installing engine.
I have the regulator set at 2.5 PSI ( some reason adjustment doesn't go any higher).
Put about 3 gallons of fuel into the tank. Checked engine oil, and transmission ground etc.
Engine had trouble starting, until about 5-8 times. Only fires on if I push to pedal and hold for a bit.. once I let go of the pedal RPMs sound low, and then engine turns off.
Not sure where to start.
Link
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1972 Westfalia P30 hardtop Campmobile [On-going Restoration]
| aeromech wrote: |
| I don't think I've ever seen an engine in worse shape. |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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| Terminatez wrote: |
| I have the regulator set at 2.5 PSI ( some reason adjustment doesn't go any higher). |
Or is it your gauge?, do you have another to try?
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16970
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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Kevin,
It does sound like it’s running out of gas. You can try and fill both float bowls and if it starts and runs great for about a minute and then dies suspect your fuel source.
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MorkC68
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Joined: December 23, 2015
Posts: 610
Location: Nottingham, England
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:31 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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Check the fuel flow from the tank outlet to see if the outlet got blocked then work your way to the carbs checking every junction for flow.
I suspect it’s the tank outlet
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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Maybe Busdaddy is onto something. You say your gauge maxes out at 2 1/2 psi but as I recall that pump should put out 4 psi. Maybe try going the other way on the regulator and forget what the gauge says. Try lowering the fuel pressure and see what happens. You may be flooding it if your gauge isn't calibrated.
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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is the gas from the same batch it ran on prior? Fresh?
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sodbuster
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Location: wherever my baywindow takes me.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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| Quote: |
| Fuel tank was hot tanked, and light coated with ATF from inside to prevent rust before installing engine. |
Just how much ATF was used to "light coat" the fuel tank? was it enough once the fuel was put in and effectively rinsed the tank to contaminate the fuel?
Just a little spit ballin' here. |
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Terminatez
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Joined: June 07, 2015
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Location: Sun Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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I'll buy another Gage to test the pressure.
I used a quart of ATF to coat inside the fuel tank (to make sure it reaches everywhere when shaken), but I let it drain for about an hour.. pretty much till where it wasn't dripping anymore. Had more than 3/4ths of it back in the same container. I also put 4 gallons and then let it drain completely. I then installed the fuel filter to the outlet and pump, and put in fresh new fuel.
I'll start off with a new gage To check pressure.
I have the vent lines that connect to the charcoal cannisters disconnected, will this affect the pump somehow by sucking air?
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1972 Westfalia P30 hardtop Campmobile [On-going Restoration]
| aeromech wrote: |
| I don't think I've ever seen an engine in worse shape. |
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Terminatez
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Location: Sun Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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Changed the gauge and still wasn't able to get it higher than 2psi.
Might be the regulator. I just ordered the diaphragm kit for the regulator and hope that'll fix it. Will also be checking the outlet to see if it's blocked some how.
I have a 3/16 hose from tank outlet going to a shut off valve which converts to 5/16 hose into the pump. Would this cause the pump to not push past 2psi?
Also, while trying to start the engine today... I had a lot of back firing from the carbs. Would not stay on even when pushing the throttle. Could see fire around the carbs. This didn't happen that last time. 
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1972 Westfalia P30 hardtop Campmobile [On-going Restoration]
| aeromech wrote: |
| I don't think I've ever seen an engine in worse shape. |
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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3/16 is too small. Bypass the regulator and try it again
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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did you remove the spark plug wires after the test firing or change the timing? Did you remove the carbs or any hoses after the test run?
Someone might get a kick out of this. For my high school prom, my best friend and I took their family '67 Camaro to go to the prom and after prom with our dates. Danny and Mike took the '41 Packard deluxe we had restored. When Steve P and I left his house Dan was outside trying to get the Packard running and it was doing all sorts of strange things like yours. Finally about 10PM Dan and Mike showed up at the prom with their dates. Turns out Dan's dad had handed him a gas can full of kerosene to pour in the tank to be sure he had enough gas to get to the gas station to fill it up.
Your problem sounds like the fuel pump is not properly pumping fuel by the way, or there is a restriction in the line. You might try turning the key on and leaving it on for 30 seconds then trying to start it. If it is the fuel pump or a restriction it will run fine for a minute or two. If it is the plug wires changed - be sure to check them again. Good luck.
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Terminatez
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Location: Sun Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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Thanks for the replies.
| aeromech wrote: |
| 3/16 is too small. Bypass the regulator and try it again |
Gary,
I just ordered the proper size hose (Honda 5.5 fuel hose) and fittings for the shut off cock that I have to be able to change filters easily. May indeed be a restriction from the too small 3/16 hose.
| SGKent wrote: |
did you remove the spark plug wires after the test firing or change the timing? Did you remove the carbs or any hoses after the test run?
Someone might get a kick out of this. For my high school prom, my best friend and I took their family '67 Camaro to go to the prom and after prom with our dates. Danny and Mike took the '41 Packard deluxe we had restored. When Steve P and I left his house Dan was outside trying to get the Packard running and it was doing all sorts of strange things like yours. Finally about 10PM Dan and Mike showed up at the prom with their dates. Turns out Dan's dad had handed him a gas can full of kerosene to pour in the tank to be sure he had enough gas to get to the gas station to fill it up.
Your problem sounds like the fuel pump is not properly pumping fuel by the way, or there is a restriction in the line. You might try turning the key on and leaving it on for 30 seconds then trying to start it. If it is the fuel pump or a restriction it will run fine for a minute or two. If it is the plug wires changed - be sure to check them again. Good luck. |
Didn't remove the spark plugs. Carbs came off to slap the engine in (which I just realize I forgot to mention in the original post)  .
I will double check the plug wires tomorrow afternoon.
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1972 Westfalia P30 hardtop Campmobile [On-going Restoration]
| aeromech wrote: |
| I don't think I've ever seen an engine in worse shape. |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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sometimes on a T4 the carbs/phenolic gets hung up on the tin and causes big vacuum leak under the base. Check there too.
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aeromech
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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I think you’ll like that Honda hose Kevin
_________________
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Terminatez
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Joined: June 07, 2015
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Location: Sun Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| sometimes on a T4 the carbs/phenolic gets hung up on the tin and causes big vacuum leak under the base. Check there too. |
Don't have time to attend it at the moment until the following weekend, but I just checked it out and it seems like the manifold/gasket is sitting above the tin.
Thanks for the suggestion.
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1972 Westfalia P30 hardtop Campmobile [On-going Restoration]
| aeromech wrote: |
| I don't think I've ever seen an engine in worse shape. |
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aeromech
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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Do you mean that the tin is sandwiched between the intake manifold and the head? That’s bad
_________________
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Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
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BAe146
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Terminatez
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Location: Sun Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| Do you mean that the tin is sandwiched between the intake manifold and the head? That’s bad |
Yup, that's exactly what it looks like when I stuck my head into the engine area. I just took a quick look, but it was pretty visible.
Unfortunately the 72 doesn't have the engine bay door on the top so I can't check stuff out from above.
There are quite a few things I have to address to get the engine going. While trying to get the engine going in the bus, a few other problems came out.
1) One of the push rod tubes is leaking. The rest are fine, for now. Initially the push rod tubes seemed a bit short, all of them. The O-rings were all pretty much sticking out, so they were removed, picked up some shims and places them to give the rods a little more space. This allowed the O-rings to go into the slot better and fixed leaks on all the tubes, except I guess now one tube is leaking.
2) I have a small leak around the oil pump. Initially, the pump leaked on the bench... so it was removed, sanded down and a different gasket added. Stopped leaking, until now.
3) Exhaust leak! Right at the heads.
Going to follow ratwell guide on sealing the exhaust to the heads.
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Exhaust.html
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1972 Westfalia P30 hardtop Campmobile [On-going Restoration]
| aeromech wrote: |
| I don't think I've ever seen an engine in worse shape. |
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aeromech
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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Looks like Steve called it
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Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
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Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
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Terminatez
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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Oh, and this is how the Orings looked before the shims...
They wouldn't go further in. Without the other side coming out the same way. Heads torqued correctly.
After adding the shims they were ok... short push rod tubes or what is your guys opinion?
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1972 Westfalia P30 hardtop Campmobile [On-going Restoration]
| aeromech wrote: |
| I don't think I've ever seen an engine in worse shape. |
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aeromech
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Bench ran fine, installed in the bus failing. |
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What does the camper special people say about this?
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
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Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
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