1970 Fasterback build

[garrett.fell]

Okay - update.....

I am getting power to the AAR when the car is running. I do get a little bit of resistance when I test the AAR. Right now the AAR is in the open state.

I got it started again today after MUCH cranking. It was flooded horribly and came to life very slowly as it blew the fuel out.

I had it running for a bit - stopped and started it a few times, but again when I let it run for a little while (and I guess get warmer?) I turned it off and was unable to get it started again...... Just lots of cranking and the smell of fuel.

What's going on here?

[garrett.fell]

Man!!!

It seems like I just can't win with this thing. After last nights flooding episode I tried it again after work today and managed to get it started about an hour ago. *Very* slowly came to life after quite a bit of cranking and smoking......throttle wide open barely running for 20-30 seconds before it cleared up and started behaving normally. I did a couple quick stop and starts - not letting it run for very long between cycles.

So then I let it run for a good 10 minutes, set the ignition timing with a strobe and was generally pleased with myself and the way it was running. I had clamped-off the fuel hose that led to the CSV - it can't flood if there's no fuel - right? I didn't use a proper clamp with jaws that are completely parallel, but I did use a pair of long forceps - I am guessing It was effective, but not 100% sure.

Anyway - same damn thing. Running great - flip the key off and try to restart and get nothing! Just cranking and cranking with the smell of fuel.

It's gotta be these injectors right??? I couldn't see *one* leaky injector making it not start. Oil level looks okay, but it does smell like fuel a bit for sure.

Help please!

-Garrett

[garrett.fell]

Update -

After a bunch of testing yesterday, we seem to have isolated the pressure loss issue. I am not sure if it's what's causing my hot-hard-start-flooding issue, but something is amiss there for sure. Earlier I had mentioned that the fuel system wouldn't hold pressure in general. It leaks down pretty quickly after shut-down and even when you flip the key to pressurize the system before you start it. When you start it - it takes a bit for pressure to build as well.

So - I took a cooling system pressure tester and used it to pressurize various components. I isolated the CSV, the fuel pressure regulator and the pressure-side of the brand spanking new high-dollar 3-port fuel pump and found....

* CSV is fine! It held 30 PSI no problem
* Regulator is fine! It holds pressure and you can hear it burp at pressures over 30.
* The check valve on the new pump seems to be leaking. It won't hold pressure!

Questions/Observations -

1. Is the check valve serviceable at all? It's under a little metal hat - can I remove this thing? I'd rather not break a $600 pump if I can help it.

2. I let the car idle for quite a while and ran it through numerous start-stop and restart cycles. It was behaving okay for maybe dozen of these - then started pulling it's old no-start tricks. Prior to this it would start up very quickly when cold. Even after it got warm it started pretty quickly, but not instantaneously like it did when totally cold. After it flooded I didn't continue to crank it. It started up this morning just fine.

3. Theory - do you think it's possible that the low pressure is causing the gas to not atomize correctly and this could be leading to the no-start flooding issue?

We did adjust the regulator slightly to about 29 pounds. It was running 31/32 previously.

Any ideas are welcome - this is super frustrating!

-Garrett

[KTPhil]

Jim Adney rebuilds the new style pumps, and has some tooling he made to do it right. He may quote you a price to rebuild just the check valve.

At low pressure, the injector will inject, but the spray pattern and droplet size will be poor. When I first got my fastback on the road after years of storage, the pressure was 24. It was hard to start, ran crappy once it did, and smelled rich, even though the poor fuel atomization meant it was lean from imperfect combustion. I adjusted the pressure back up to 28 and it ran dramatically better. I'm not sure it would flood the engine, though.

[chicagovw]

I am the owner of this Fastback and as Garrett mentioned, we ran some tests yesterday. The pump that is on the car was rebuilt by Blodgett's Automotive, and I am not sure if they are related to Jim Adney. There definitely seems to be an issue with the check valve, as it would not hold 30psi - the drop was immediate. The car did indeed start and restart multiple times, even after we let it warm up for considerable time. Until it didn't.

[KTPhil]

No relationship. Some "rebuilds" do not touch the check valve. Jim takes the metal "tophat" off, and refits a better-than-OEM part inside, then covers it back up properly. There is some finesse required and he's experienced. Jim's words from another thread:

[Bobnotch]

Yup, that little valve IS what causes most of us to go to the Ford Ranger style pump. I've had 3 go bad, and even 1 of Jim's fail after a rebuild, and yes he did make it right, but by then I'd already swapped it to the ford style pump. I gave it back to him (at an Invasion), so it could be used by someone else or someone doing a concourse resto.

I only say that about the built in check valve, as it has a 2nd function, in that it's what actually builds flow from the pump. When it goes bad, you can't build any pressure at all. When the valve goes bad, it just recirculates fuel in the pump. This is really a misleading problem, as most people WILL hear the pump run, but not check the pressure.

Ask Ray Greenwood (he's here in this forum sometimes, but spends most of his time in the type 4 forum) what he thinks about the stock Bosch pump, since the type 4 (411/412) use the same pump. He'll tell you real world stuff and info you won't get anywhere else.

The Airtex E2000 pump and the Precision E16020 pumps don't have a built in check valve, but they do build fuel pressure quickly, which eliminates the warm start issue. A check valve from McMaster Carr could eliminate the problem with the ford style pump IF it becomes a problem. I haven't had that issue with one.

I like using the ford style pump, because I can get a new one almost anywhere in the USA for less than a 100 bucks. They're available at the Zone, NAPA, Advanced, CarQuest too if you have one, and O'Reilly's.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120

[garrett.fell]

Okay - so we’ve made the decision to do the fuel pump conversion to see if that fixes the hot start issue. Mike picked up the “Precision” pump from O’Relies over the weekend. It’s not installled yet. A couple questions / observations

1. The pump seems to have an internal check valve. I pressurized the output port with a cooling system tester pump and noted that it holds 30 PSI just fine.

2. What do you all do for the fuel line connections? These ports are NOT barbed and although I’ve seen some pictures with people just clamping them to the smooth ports - that just didn’t seem right. Seems like you’re asking for trouble doing that. I tried picking up a “Dorman” quick release connector with 5/16 barbed connection on one end and it couldn’t get it to “click” and grab the step on the steel port. What kind of connector should be used here? Even if you could get the connector on - I don’t see how you could insert one of those release collar tools on the line after to remove the connector if you wanted to. There would be no room because you’re up against the pump body at that point. What say ye?

I tried one of these.

https://www.dormanproducts.com/p-24796-800-120.aspx

I was also having a hard time finding a replacement for the screw-on fitting on one end of the pump. It’s not an NPT fitting - it’s straight thread like 3/8 24 if
I remember correctly.

I’d love to be able to find a 5/16 barbed one for that end to save on the overall length - but have not been able to locate one.

[Bobnotch]

[garrett.fell]

Okay - another update.

I made the switch to the Ford-style "Precision" fuel pump. The fuel system now properly holds pressure. Previously it would bleed down to 0 within a few seconds.

So, I started the car let it run a little here and there for less than a minute each time...started and stopped it a few times only to find that......

The problem is still there!!! Now I can't get it to start again. Ugh... It seems to be the same thing. I suspect It's flooding again since I can smell gas. I should be able to get it started tomorrow after things dry out a bit.

Any ideas here? Please... this is driving me nuts.

[Bobnotch]

[garrett.fell]

[Bobnotch]

[garrett.fell]

[garrett.fell]

I may be on to something here with the ignition system. I tested the coil and found that the spark is very-very weak.

I tested with an OHM meter and found the following

* On the coil between + and - I get 3.6 ohms
* On the coil between HT and either + or - i get 8.8K

* All spark plug wires test out at between 1.0K and 1.1K
* The HT wire that goes from between the coil and center cap tests out at 5k which seems a little odd. Could this be the issue?

I've got a new blue coil coming from Amazon today (Bosch 00012)

I took a little video of the coil spark test here. The spark is barely there.

https://youtu.be/vkhcsxT-Wvs

[garrett.fell]

Well DAMN - That wasn't it either. I was hoping I was on to something.

I have not been able to get the car restarted since it died last-time which was post-fuel pump install. It ran a few times quite nicely on the new fuel pump, but after one particular shut-down it has since refused to start again.

I replaced the coil the other day, and the spark plugs with NGK 4210's today - the plugs I removed did look rather fouled so I was hoping that was it. Nope....

I bench-tested both coils with a 12v jumpstart pack and both seem to give similar results. They will spark a plug, but I would have expected a much hotter/fatter spark than what I am seeing.

I did get it to "kick" a few times the other night after a bunch of cranking, but the car refused to come to life. I am currently left here scratching my head - clueless.

Can anyone help me with ideas on what could be wrong? I never hit a wall with one of these things before and I am afraid I am about there.

-Garrett

[Tram]

That spark doesn't look all that bad to me. Are the coils you are using Bosch Blue made in Mexico? If so, consider it defective and get a Brazilian one. If it's not defective now it will be.

How's the battery charge and charging system?

The other thought I have is that your MAP sensor may very well have a cracked diaphragm. Got another one to try?

Forgive me if this has been covered already... I'm just jumping in with both feet. Wait... SHARKS, you say?

Check posts 2 and 4 in this world famous thread for some troubleshooting info you may find useful.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=514048&start=0
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.

[garrett.fell]

[raygreenwood]

If you are truly getting spark.....and actually injecting fuel....and no longer losing fuel pressure.....it should fire up unless you are grossly rich or lean...or no longer actually injecting.....or possibly way off in initial timing or have no advance (even then it should fire up)

What have you done to check injection signal function?

Bear in mind that there should not be any injection typically when you bump the key and buzz the pump. But...if you stroke the gas pedal with the key on and engine not running....the injectors will each inject once for each segment the wiper arms pass over in the TVS.

If you have fuel pressure...and have spark...know you have it....and have basically correct timing....know for a fact that you have it.....and it does not seem to run....check all of the ground wire bundles on the case centerline...check the state of ground of the TS-2 (cylinder head temp sensor) and teh connection to this sensor......and check the three pin plug to the trigger points. For that matter if you have not done so...remove teh trigger points, clean them, check resistance and check their function with a volt meter by turning the rotor through 360 with the probe hooked up. Ray

[garrett.fell]