Author |
Message |
elpres Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2010 Posts: 321 Location: Denmark
|
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
I have read a lot of articles and also have the "Wilson" book on engine rebuilding.
the engine I have "opend up" is a 1600, and there was a stuck valve in one of the heads, and that meant a bend pushrod.
I decided to have a look at the internals, as I dident know anything about mileage and so on.
So far, I have found no metal or dirt In the oil, and all parts look ok to me.
I'm in doubt about what the bearing saddles and the bearing them selves should look like.
Any pointers or thought regarding this? Are these stripes on the saddels normal?
_________________ Jakob |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3837 Location: San Jose, CA
|
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
Yep, totally normal for a tired engine that, in all likelihood, needs a line bore to the next oversize. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
run your fingernails over the bearing saddles. Do you feel any ridges where the area where the oil slots were in the bearings. If you do then the bearings have pounded into the case a little. The taller the ridge the deeper they have been pushed in. It is hard to suggest a line / align bore without knowing what size the bores are now.
Regardless the bearings will need to be replaced but you can't order until you know the size, and you can't do any machine work until you know the sizes available. So here is your first project on this engine.
Cleanliness is next to Godliness with rebuilding an engine, one piece of sand caught in an engine can destroy a bearing. Keep the cats away and cover everything up when you aren't working on it.
Next, you are in Denmark. Make some phone calls, get a hold of your VW buddies and club. Find out who does the following work with the keen eye of a perfectionist. Preferably all the racers for miles around send their VW and other engines there to be machined.
The machine shop will need to do or refer you to someone who
1)Find who can check the crankshaft and polish it if needed. Maybe even grind or send to the grinder. Do not allow anything to lay on top of the crankshaft other than something to keep it clean. It is easy to damage
2) keep the rods with the correct caps. Know which piston and wrist pin came from each one. Cylnder too. You will need to find someone who can check them and resize them if they measure out of tolerance.
3) Just replace the heads.
4) Find who can check the camshaft. If you replace it get nothing more than an RV type cam - something with good torque and a little more top end but not a lot. This isn't a Ghia.
5) Find who can check the flywheel to see if it needs to be turned.
6) Find who can balance the rotating mass when the machine work is done.
Last - get lots of ziplock type bags and a black sharpie. Label the bags with what is in them. When you clean those things put them in a new clean bag. Take lots of photos. Don't be in a rush. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
elpres Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2010 Posts: 321 Location: Denmark
|
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
SGKent wrote: |
run your fingernails over the bearing saddles. Do you feel any ridges where the area where the oil slots were in the bearings. If you do then the bearings have pounded into the case a little. The taller the ridge the deeper they have been pushed in. It is hard to suggest a line / align bore without knowing what size the bores are now.
Regardless the bearings will need to be replaced but you can't order until you know the size, and you can't do any machine work until you know the sizes available. So here is your first project on this engine.
Cleanliness is next to Godliness with rebuilding an engine, one piece of sand caught in an engine can destroy a bearing. Keep the cats away and cover everything up when you aren't working on it.
Next, you are in Denmark. Make some phone calls, get a hold of your VW buddies and club. Find out who does the following work with the keen eye of a perfectionist. Preferably all the racers for miles around send their VW and other engines there to be machined.
The machine shop will need to do or refer you to someone who
1)Find who can check the crankshaft and polish it if needed. Maybe even grind or send to the grinder. Do not allow anything to lay on top of the crankshaft other than something to keep it clean. It is easy to damage
2) keep the rods with the correct caps. Know which piston and wrist pin came from each one. Cylnder too. You will need to find someone who can check them and resize them if they measure out of tolerance.
3) Just replace the heads.
4) Find who can check the camshaft. If you replace it get nothing more than an RV type cam - something with good torque and a little more top end but not a lot. This isn't a Ghia.
5) Find who can check the flywheel to see if it needs to be turned.
6) Find who can balance the rotating mass when the machine work is done.
Last - get lots of ziplock type bags and a black sharpie. Label the bags with what is in them. When you clean those things put them in a new clean bag. Take lots of photos. Don't be in a rush. |
Thank you for the good advice.
I have just felt for the ridge on the saddles, and there is nothing to feel at all.
I looked up the part number on one of the bearings, and it seems it's 0,25 oversize, and together with the stud inserts in the case, it seems a rebuild at some point has been made.
I have read gene bergs article about case line bore, and to be honest I don't think anyone around here can do it, the other work you mention, is probably easier to have someone do.
Right now the case halves swim in a diesel bath, and from there I'll clean them up with solvent and blow them dry afterwards.
I hope there are no cracks in the case, if not maybe I can use it.
I usually buy stuff from kieft n Klok in the Netherlands or coolairvw in U.K, do you know if there are any brands of bearing better that another? _________________ Jakob |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4023 Location: WA
|
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
Any brand of bearing will work fine in a stock engine as the crank will only touch them in the first turn or two of starting and shut down, unless you lose oil pressure then any bearing will be toast as the crank rides on a dynamic wedge of oil. A good test of if you need a align bore if first get a steel straight edge and lay it across the saddles then try to slide a .001" feeler gage under it, if a .002" will slide under the center saddle it will have to be assembled and the clearance checked with plastic gage to see your clearance to the crank. If the old bearings don't look like they have been "wiped", clean and use them for the test to get an idea of what you have. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12721 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
|
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
Silverline main bearings are great these days. Mahle's seem good but I haven't put a ton of miles on them. The new Kolbenschmidt bearings feel like garbage, and all their new bearings are almost twice as light as the competitors, so stay away from them if you want a solid product.
How did the engine decided it needed a rebuild?
For example, if there was a metallurgical failure in the long block, then you will want to get a new oil cooler. If you took it apart before failure, you can have the oil cooler pressure tested (around 85psi) and if it passes, reuse it. If there was a valve or seat issue that resulted in a seizure, you will want to have the crank and rods given an EXTRA thorough checking because parts can bend under extreme force. If the engine was just feeling tired but still ran well and made good oil pressure, you have an easier job ahead of you.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
from the pictures the main bearing saddles don't look too bad.
What was the reason you say you decided to rebuild it?
Do any of the backs of the main or rod bearings have really shiny spots where the metal may have been moving in the saddle? The photos don't show any but one cannot tell from photos.
Put a thin piece of letter paper on your smooth desk then drag your finger nail across the desk until it hit the piece of paper. If the bearing has pounded in it will feel a little like that. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
elpres Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2010 Posts: 321 Location: Denmark
|
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
The reason for rebuild.
The car was picked up in Norway, sold to a friend of mine by the dead owners very old wife, then I bought it from my friend.
The engine was at some point taken out and was resting on the bed (it’s a DOKA), and was partly disassembled. Carb, cooling house, manifold, tin ware missing, when I bought it.
I found a box in the cabin with engine parts, and one push rod was bent. I removed the heads and found one stuck valve. After removing the heads the engine spun freely/easy. No endplay, and no weird stuff in the oil. But as I found it on the dirty bed of the car with no pushrod tubes, and manifold, I thought it would be wise to rebuild it.
According to previous owner, the car haven’t been driven since 1987, as it was in an accident. That’s mainly what I know.
I’m on my way to borrow a metal ruler, so I can get a feeling of the straightness of the bores. Good idea. _________________ Jakob |
|
Back to top |
|
|
elpres Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2010 Posts: 321 Location: Denmark
|
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
The Bearing sitting in #2, the one with 2 halves, Seems a little loose in the saddle, and they don't stick up from the case. I'm thinking it's because they are old, and if I bought some new ones they might sit better? And I can see a bit of bronze inside the bearing halves?
But if I take one of the other bearings and place it in position #2, it's a snug fit.
Any thoughts? _________________ Jakob |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4023 Location: WA
|
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
elpres wrote: |
The Bearing sitting in #2, the one with 2 halves, Seems a little loose in the saddle, and they don't stick up from the case. I'm thinking it's because they are old, and if I bought some new ones they might sit better? And I can see a bit of bronze inside the bearing halves?
But if I take one of the other bearings and place it in position #2, it's a snug fit.
Any thoughts?
|
With one half in the case, place a straight edge across the top and see if the ends are raised above the split line, if so the case might be OK and with the other side of case with bearing in place it would spread back out, but with the bronze showing it indicates the bearing was being beat by the crank from lugging the motor. You really need to torque the case together without bearings and have a Machinist measure the bore with a long handle snap gage or long reach inter mic. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
also it is not just a metal ruler - you need a machinists' straight edge. A metal ruler might help but inexpensive metal rulers can be more warped than a case. No machinist is going to lend someone their machinists' straight edge, they are off limits to most of the people in a machine shop because if they get left in the sun, dropped, carried wrong they can warp. Usually the shop will also have a block of steel, aluminum or granite that has been milled to a near perfectly flat surface. The straight edge gets checked against that too. Even the heat from the machinist's hands can temporarily warp a straight edge. But a metal ruler will tell you if it is massively warped. Flip it over and try it both sides to see if the warping is the same. You can check the straight edge on a piece of glass too to see if it is wavy or warped. That will give you an idea at least. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
elpres Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2010 Posts: 321 Location: Denmark
|
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
Thanks again for your help.
It's not that I don't want to go to a machinist, it's just... I don't know anyone. And I usually handle things myself.
So my dilemma is, whether to throw some money after this old case or buy a new one, probably i the U.K. or the Netherlands. And who's to say what they'll send!
If I choose to move on with the case I have, I need to find someone good and someone who has some good reviews. Then I read this article by gene berg
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=22_506
And then I'm totally confused. _________________ Jakob |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
good luck. You'll be Ok. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4023 Location: WA
|
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
Well this is way too late, but live and learn. I think if you would of posed the question first on here, like "What should I do, I have this", if I saw it would have advised you to buy new push rods and heads and start it up and see what you have, as you would need them later with a rebuild if the rods are knocking or the oil pressure is too low, or you got lucky and got a good one. I say put new bearings in it with the above parts and run it. These engines are easy to pull and take apart if you work on cars and fun when you learn them. They are very forgiving if you drive then like they were made for. You would have got a lot of other advice from others giving their opinions and you pick the ones that make the most sense. Sorry for the long post. Good luck and keep asking when you get stumped. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
elpres Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2010 Posts: 321 Location: Denmark
|
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
Starbucket wrote: |
Well this is way too late, but live and learn. I think if you would of posed the question first on here, like "What should I do, I have this", if I saw it would have advised you to buy new push rods and heads and start it up and see what you have, as you would need them later with a rebuild if the rods are knocking or the oil pressure is too low, or you got lucky and got a good one. I say put new bearings in it with the above parts and run it. These engines are easy to pull and take apart if you work on cars and fun when you learn them. They are very forgiving if you drive then like they were made for. You would have got a lot of other advice from others giving their opinions and you pick the ones that make the most sense. Sorry for the long post. Good luck and keep asking when you get stumped. |
I agree. I did think of just having new pushrods, tubes and heads. But somehow decided to take the case appart. I might just throw some new bearings and lifters in it, and have it Rolling for the Next summer, giving myself some more time to find another case or a swap engine, even though it’s rare these days to find them. Cheers, i should be a sleep by now. _________________ Jakob |
|
Back to top |
|
|
elpres Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2010 Posts: 321 Location: Denmark
|
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
I just ordered a engineers/machinist straight edge in stel..wow, that was pricey. But a nice tool to have in the toolbox. Or maybe on the top shelve in my shop, away from my two boys (2 and 4 years old). _________________ Jakob |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
keep your machinists tools together in a safe spot where they don't get moisture on them to rust. It will probably come in s case, and special paper to protect it from rusting. Store it in that when you aren't using it. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4023 Location: WA
|
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
elpres wrote: |
I just ordered a engineers/machinist straight edge in stel..wow, that was pricey. But a nice tool to have in the toolbox. Or maybe on the top shelve in my shop, away from my two boys (2 and 4 years old).
|
It should come in a protective case, keep it in it and rum down with lite oil and rub off excess after use. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
elpres Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2010 Posts: 321 Location: Denmark
|
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
It’s seems the #2 saddles are a little egg shaped, around 0.05mm difference in each case half. I bought that machinist straight edge, and it was easy to see. So that case needs a line boring I guess.
My new idea involves a 1300 engine I have at hand. It might already have been upgraded with a 1641 kit (new pistons and heads). And the guy who has it pulled it from his vw t2 bus. He said that some sort of adapter kit (type 1 to type 2) was mounted on it.
I can buy the complete engine for a reasonable price, and I have all the type 2 tinware myself.
Any thoughts about this plan? Better ask u guys before doing anything. Lesson learned! _________________ Jakob |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4023 Location: WA
|
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Newbie engine builder question |
|
|
When you say .05mm difference, do you mean one side is .05mm greater than the other side? It's not uncommon if the case has been line bored as all the bores will be off the same. The machinist will sometimes move the centerline towards the side worn the most so it will clean up at the next over size. If the 1300 case was drilled and tapped to adapt it, that is good but if its just the oil pump plate, those are pretty weak, as those little studs are taking a lot of torque. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|