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APPLEGREENVW Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2003 Posts: 2388 Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15309 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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ACN suggestions and recommendations are static.
To get a true dynamic CR you need many measurements to calculate. Most of the internet calculators are for water cooled engines and not accurate for aircooled engines. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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jfats808 Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2007 Posts: 5022 Location: oahu hawaii
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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I use this site when calculating DCR:
https://www.uempistons.com/index.php?main_page=calculators
Fill in the DH, bore, stroke ( in inches) , rod length and Intake valve closing + 15. _________________ 2276 IDA's 86C 11-1 DD !
2017 48 Trijet DRLA's W125
Rockstar Suzuki wrote: |
You might as well put 10 year build in your bullshit sig, as it will NEVER run. Also your a dick |
You can always learn something new, even from a fool.
Check your oil levels routinely! |
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ac509 Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2012 Posts: 160 Location: moved
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
ACN suggestions and recommendations are static.
To get a true dynamic CR you need many measurements to calculate. Most of the internet calculators are for water cooled engines and not accurate for aircooled engines. |
how is the cooling system, in any way, related to the dynamic compression ratio? _________________ Dumber people are doing harder things everyday.
No one questions a 73' Volkswagen?
I have a '73 Volkswagen and it is nowhere near 73' long! |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003 Posts: 4863 Location: Harmony, PA
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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I've also used this calculator with excellent results. 7.5 Dynamic has worked well for me as a target with 93 octane.
ac509 wrote: |
vwracerdave wrote: |
ACN suggestions and recommendations are static.
To get a true dynamic CR you need many measurements to calculate. Most of the internet calculators are for water cooled engines and not accurate for aircooled engines. |
how is the cooling system, in any way, related to the dynamic compression ratio? |
Watercooled heads don't usually operate at temps over 300 degrees. |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
ACN suggestions and recommendations are static.
To get a true dynamic CR you need many measurements to calculate. Most of the internet calculators are for water cooled engines and not accurate for aircooled engines. |
Whether a motor is cooled with air or water it doesn't make any difference in calculating dynamic compression. If it does, then please explain. Both are internal combustion engine as that do exactly the same thing to make power. _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4027 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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[email protected] wrote: |
Watercooled heads don't usually operate at temps over 300 degrees. |
Re quoted for the people that just skim and don't read the full post...... _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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clonebug wrote: |
[email protected] wrote: |
Watercooled heads don't usually operate at temps over 300 degrees. |
Re quoted for the people that just skim and don't read the full post...... |
The chambers of water cooled and air cooled heads all run at about the same temps. Hot. I know quite a few people that use the water cooled calculators and it works. I use it and it worked out just fine. My 10.4:1 2276 run a cool. No detonation and I run 32 total advance. Funny...the dynamic cr turned out to be 7.4....eight in the safe zone and it works just fine. _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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Show me how and why something doesn't work....not just conjecture. Until then, I'll keep doing it. _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4027 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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Here's a compression calculator for ya.......
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compression.htm
Plug in my numbers.......It's even a W100 cam
7.8:1 static
22.7 lbs. boost....
110 ft. ASL
23,000 miles and counting.....How many miles you got on that 2276???? _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003 Posts: 4863 Location: Harmony, PA
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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fivelugshortaxle wrote: |
clonebug wrote: |
[email protected] wrote: |
Watercooled heads don't usually operate at temps over 300 degrees. |
Re quoted for the people that just skim and don't read the full post...... |
The chambers of water cooled and air cooled heads all run at about the same temps. Hot. I know quite a few people that use the water cooled calculators and it works. I use it and it worked out just fine. My 10.4:1 2276 run a cool. No detonation and I run 32 total advance. Funny...the dynamic cr turned out to be 7.4....eight in the safe zone and it works just fine. |
It's simply another tool. I'm not saying you can't use a "watercooled" calculator for an aircooled engine, you just may not be able to apply the info in the same manner. There are many, many other variables. You, yourself just proved a dynamic lower than 7.5 using the UE calculator can run premium pump gas.
I built a 1776 with 7.6 dynamic that I got to ping once on my way home from work. It was 35 minutes into the trip, loaded in 4th at the top of a hill about a mile long, with the ambient temperature at 96 degrees.
A customer complained of "a noise" upon acceleration of his fresh 1776. Come to find out it had a tiny 2280 CB cam, that the person built the engine with 9.0:1 static, and that made close to 7.9:1 dynamic. You guessed it, the noise was the engine pinging like a bitch. We had to turn the timing down to 24 degrees to get him home.
The engine I first used the calculator on was when a customer wanted a set of wedgeports cut to make his 2276 11.2:1 static. He was running an FK-89 that made his dynamic 7.6, and the engine ran flawlessly.
I do know those that have used the UE calculator, and ran over 8.0:1 dynamic with a watercooled V8's on pump gas. Either they know something I don't, which is quite possible, or watercooled heads are less detonation proof.
If your static of 10.4 is creating a dynamic of 7.4, bump your static to 11.0:1, and report back. |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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clonebug wrote: |
Here's a compression calculator for ya.......
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compression.htm
Plug in my numbers.......It's even a W100 cam
7.8:1 static
22.7 lbs. boost....
110 ft. ASL
23,000 miles and counting.....How many miles you got on that 2276???? |
That's just dumb.....boosted is a different animal. My 2276 has about 1,500 on it. Took it apart to change out the crappy clackety clack straight cuts. Rod bearings on it are looking bad.......because I got dumb and ran it pretty hard with about 40 degrees total advance.....for bout 20 miles. Hahahahahah....live and learn. Crank checked out fine...rods checked out fine. New straight cuts and new rod bearings and it's going right back together. At 10.4:1. _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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[email protected] wrote: |
fivelugshortaxle wrote: |
clonebug wrote: |
[email protected] wrote: |
Watercooled heads don't usually operate at temps over 300 degrees. |
Re quoted for the people that just skim and don't read the full post...... |
The chambers of water cooled and air cooled heads all run at about the same temps. Hot. I know quite a few people that use the water cooled calculators and it works. I use it and it worked out just fine. My 10.4:1 2276 run a cool. No detonation and I run 32 total advance. Funny...the dynamic cr turned out to be 7.4....eight in the safe zone and it works just fine. |
It's simply another tool. I'm not saying you can't use a "watercooled" calculator for an aircooled engine, you just may not be able to apply the info in the same manner. There are many, many other variables. You, yourself just proved a dynamic lower than 7.5 using the UE calculator can run premium pump gas.
I built a 1776 with 7.6 dynamic that I got to ping once on my way home from work. It was 35 minutes into the trip, loaded in 4th at the top of a hill about a mile long, with the ambient temperature at 96 degrees.
A customer complained of "a noise" upon acceleration of his fresh 1776. Come to find out it had a tiny 2280 CB cam, that the person built the engine with 9.0:1 static, and that made close to 7.9:1 dynamic. You guessed it, the noise was the engine pinging like a bitch. We had to turn the timing down to 24 degrees to get him home.
The engine I first used the calculator on was when a customer wanted a set of wedgeports cut to make his 2276 11.2:1 static. He was running an FK-89 that made his dynamic 7.6, and the engine ran flawlessly.
I do know those that have used the UE calculator, and ran over 8.0:1 dynamic with a watercooled V8's on pump gas. Either they know something I don't, which is quite possible, or watercooled heads are less detonation proof.
If your static of 10.4 is creating a dynamic of 7.4, bump your static to 11.0:1, and report back. |
Going to keep it at 10.4. The 2332 I'm building now will be 10:1. Different cam, though. SLR EXR304. Cam is really close to an 86b. 1 degree off in opening and closing g times and 46 degrees overlap. Dynamic came out to 7.438 if I remember correctly. Good enough for me. _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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thesatanicmechanic Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2008 Posts: 102 Location: Charlotte, NC
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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I've always put the cutoff for anything aircooled on pump gas at 7.5. CHTs are nothing to be trifled with.
One day, when we're all rolling around with blue tooth enabled pressure sensitive spark plugs that can upload our combustion pressures to the cloud, the empirical data will be reviewed.
Until then, 7.5 is a pretty good Dcr to work with for those of us that do not wish to burn our shit to the ground.
p.s.
we can easily access 93 octane here on the east coast. I like at least that margin of safety. |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:32 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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Yep. That's the same number by all the reading ive9done that I try to stay under. _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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Back to top |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003 Posts: 4863 Location: Harmony, PA
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:12 am Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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fivelugshortaxle wrote: |
Show me how and why something doesn't work....not just conjecture. Until then, I'll keep doing it. |
fivelugshortaxle wrote: |
Yep. That's the same number by all the reading ive9done that I try to stay under. |
If the last two engines you've built have had less than 7.5:1 for dynamic compression, what are questioning "doesn't work"? |
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ac509 Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2012 Posts: 160 Location: moved
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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i have yet to see a compression calculator (dynamic or static) ask for the cooling capacity or cooling type for the engine.
i don't get out much, so maybe someone can point me in the direction of this "aircooled specific" calculator. _________________ Dumber people are doing harder things everyday.
No one questions a 73' Volkswagen?
I have a '73 Volkswagen and it is nowhere near 73' long! |
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Floating VW Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015 Posts: 1597 Location: The South Zone
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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If anyone is old-fashioned like me and doesn't trust the algorithms they use on those fancy online calculators, here are the formulas I use to calculate dynamic stroke (which is then used to calculate the DCR):
•Intake Closing Angle @ 0.050" (ICA) = 1/2Duration @ .050” + Lobe Center Angle – 180
•Crank Stoke (CS) = distance the piston travels from TDC to BDC
•Horizontal Rod Displacement (HRD) = 1/2CS × (sine ICA)
•Rod Distance Below Crank Center Line (RD) = 1/2CS × (cosine ICA)
•Rod Length (RL) = length of the rod from journal center to wrist-pin center
•Piston Rise from Rod Distance Below Crank Center Line (PR1) = √(RL² ‒ HRD²)
•Piston Rise from Crank Center Line (PR2) = PR1 ‒ RD
•Dynamic Stroke (DS) = CS – [(PR2 + 1/2CS) – RL]
note: Both the ICA value written on the cam card and the above formula for calculating the ICA don't always match the true ICA of the cam, so whenever possible, I feel it's better to actually clock the cam to find the true value.
P.S. I mentioned this recently in another thread, but I'll repeat it here: For what it's worth, my DCR is set at about 7.64:1 and I run US 89 octane with no problem, and I have used on occasion 87 octane for brief periods, also with no problem. As a fair warning, my intake ports and combustion chambers are a little different, so these results may not be typical. _________________ "It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 4394 Location: Brew City
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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ac509 wrote: |
i have yet to see a compression calculator (dynamic or static) ask for the cooling capacity or cooling type for the engine.
i don't get out much, so maybe someone can point me in the direction of this "aircooled specific" calculator. |
EXACTLY!!!
The better that the head casting can dissipate heat and run cooler, the less likely it is to detonate. Using the formulas is just making an educated guess, along with finding out what other people have done. There is no exact 100% accurate formula because none of them account for the cooling potential or effectiveness of the heads.
The reason the formula works better for watercooled is because the cooling potential and effectiveness of the heads is a constant in the equation, not a variable. _________________ Please "LIKE" us on facebook to see what we are working on.
https://www.facebook.com/mofoco?ref=ts&fref=ts
www.mofoco.com
Cylinder Head Reference Sheet |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Dynamic compression ratio on engle W100 & W110? |
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[email protected] wrote: |
fivelugshortaxle wrote: |
Show me how and why something doesn't work....not just conjecture. Until then, I'll keep doing it. |
fivelugshortaxle wrote: |
Yep. That's the same number by all the reading ive9done that I try to stay under. |
If the last two engines you've built have had less than 7.5:1 for dynamic compression, what are questioning "doesn't work"? |
I'm not questioning it. Just questioning why some would think there's a difference between water cooled and air cooled dynamic cr. _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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