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First stroker build 92X82
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bbus
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

Where did you get that fuel pump?

I've been looking for the same pump for a similar build. Every website says out of stock or not available!

Is that the low pressure pump you can run without regulator?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

I hope I don't offend or upset anyone with this statement BUT I would never run an electric fuel pump without a regulator. No matter what the manufacturer says or what the box says the pump is supposed to run at, you never know for sure unless you have a regulator. If the pump runs at too high of pressure, you can kill your engine very quickly.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

x2 on some tool steel lifters

after dealing with a set of lifters going bad, i bought some tool steel ones haven't looked back

buy once, cry once
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

bbus wrote:
Where did you get that fuel pump?

I've been looking for the same pump for a similar build. Every website says out of stock or not available!

Is that the low pressure pump you can run without regulator?

I found it here in the classifieds. The last one the guy had. Smile
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67rustavenger Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
I hope I don't offend or upset anyone with this statement BUT I would never run an electric fuel pump without a regulator. No matter what the manufacturer says or what the box says the pump is supposed to run at, you never know for sure unless you have a regulator. If the pump runs at too high of pressure, you can kill your engine very quickly.

I'm not offended.
I use the Holley 1402 regulator as my "tee" in the fuel line to the carbs.
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67rustavenger Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

theDrew wrote:
x2 on some tool steel lifters

after dealing with a set of lifters going bad, i bought some tool steel ones haven't looked back

buy once, cry once

No argument on this idea. I also would have loved to have a set of Dan's "Bee Hive" springs too. But my build funds got sucked up on other parts.
Maybe on the next build.

If you have been following along here.
You can see that I have had to buy twice and cried once!
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

Going to tool steel lifters is too much of a knee jerk reaction IMO
There is a lot of things you can do IN BETWEEN cheap ass liftrers and carving them out of tool steel. The secret to making it work is material, heat treatment, and machining, and lubrication. You can improve ALL of those things, a little bit, and do a lot of good. AND, steel lifters cam be made wrong too. many engines on the road with both kinds, and they both work.
The big difference seems to be cost. it's expensive to make a mushroom lifter from steel.
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67rustavenger Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Going to tool steel lifters is too much of a knee jerk reaction IMO
There is a lot of things you can do IN BETWEEN cheap ass liftrers and carving them out of tool steel. The secret to making it work is material, heat treatment, and machining, and lubrication. You can improve ALL of those things, a little bit, and do a lot of good. AND, steel lifters cam be made wrong too. many engines on the road with both kinds, and they both work.
The big difference seems to be cost. it's expensive to make a mushroom lifter from steel.

I'm not saying I'm going that direction on any upcoming build. Just maybe a consideration.

I'd really like to know what your thoughts are on the use of sump screens on large displacement engines. You said that you had a half page rant all tee'd up. Then thought better of posting it.
Inquiring minds want to know.
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

I've seen just as many engines killed by screens as killed by lack of screens.

Look at your faucet....it's got an "aerator" in it? gee looks like a screen to me.
Screens do act as airators when the oil level gets iffy,, and that kills bearings slowly without any sign it's happening.
you've maybe seen rockflasher's experience with the CB filter sump, or Jimbo's problem with a air leak in the pickup, very strange stuff, when you restrict the suction side or leak in a little air.
If a screen is PARTLY obstructed, it will restrict the oil flow and also kill the bearings usually WITHOUT triggering the light.

You want the oil system to WORK or NOT WORK, there is no good to come from it half working.
If there are chunks in the engine do you want to know? or not know? it's not a race with a finish line or an airplane that has to land, just a VW. If there are chunks..... shut it down.
And what the point of not catching chunks? just letting them run FREE in there. I've seen engines that had a BOLT or something in the pan, and it went around in there like a pinball machine, dents in the rods, the pistons, the case. C-clips get into the piston skirt OUCH. usually offroad stuff or power equipment, but yes it happens. What you want is a MAGNET to catch any steel bits and HOLD them.

And what scenario is it that the screen would do good? Sabotage? Mistakes? I've seen several killed by lint. yes lint. Pissed off at your boss, your competition is cheating? Take dryer lint and stick it in the valve cover. Slow death. Just like gunk death. Most engines don't have a screen you can clean, so if they get gunked too bad.....same thing. happened to my co-worker.

i remember one guy didn't have a screen and sucked a shop rag up the pickup tube. How did it get in there? Shocked to get that out of there?
but what if there WAS a screen? it would be just as bad, bat easier to fix I guess.....If he caught it in time. But what if he didn't? So, it's just pros and cons. WITH a screen you are better protected from rocks and aluminum chunks.

Without a screen you are better protected from aeration and starvation.

You burn a bearing and then have to straighten the crank, grind the crank, fix the rod, replace bearings.....compare that with the cost of an oil pump.


i think the ideal setup is magnets in the sump, a screen in the generator stand to prevent the ingress of sabotage, and to use internal engine parts that don't have pieces that fall off, and don't leave loose parts in the engine.
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fivelugshortaxle
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
modok wrote:
Going to tool steel lifters is too much of a knee jerk reaction IMO
There is a lot of things you can do IN BETWEEN cheap ass liftrers and carving them out of tool steel. The secret to making it work is material, heat treatment, and machining, and lubrication. You can improve ALL of those things, a little bit, and do a lot of good. AND, steel lifters cam be made wrong too. many engines on the road with both kinds, and they both work.
The big difference seems to be cost. it's expensive to make a mushroom lifter from steel.

I'm not saying I'm going that direction on any upcoming build. Just maybe a consideration.

I'd really like to know what your thoughts are on the use of sump screens on large displacement engines. You said that you had a half page rant all tee'd up. Then thought better of posting it.
Inquiring minds want to know.


I for one will never use anything other than Thorsten Pieper tool steel lifters. Finished my cam change this past weekend. The tool steel lifters looked like they just came out of the box. They were ran almost 4,000 miles with an aggressive cam....clone of an FK45
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

I appreciate your feedback, but that's not any different than you can do with 50$ lifters. Appearance counts for little as well. Iron does not necessarily look pretty, but that's not the point. The way it works is oxide films. You see a SHINY lifter, that's to me means it's wearing out Wink the real verdict will be in 5-10 years.
God willing, we will find out Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

modok wrote:
I've seen just as many engines killed by screens as killed by lack of screens.

Look at your faucet....it's got an "aerator" in it? gee looks like a screen to me.
Screens do act as airators when the oil level gets iffy,, and that kills bearings slowly without any sign it's happening.
you've maybe seen rockflasher's experience with the CB filter sump, or Jimbo's problem with a air leak in the pickup, very strange stuff, when you restrict the suction side or leak in a little air.
If a screen is PARTLY obstructed, it will restrict the oil flow and also kill the bearings usually WITHOUT triggering the light.

You want the oil system to WORK or NOT WORK, there is no good to come from it half working.
If there are chunks in the engine do you want to know? or not know? it's not a race with a finish line or an airplane that has to land, just a VW. If there are chunks..... shut it down.
And what the point of not catching chunks? just letting them run FREE in there. I've seen engines that had a BOLT or something in the pan, and it went around in there like a pinball machine, dents in the rods, the pistons, the case. C-clips get into the piston skirt OUCH. usually offroad stuff or power equipment, but yes it happens. What you want is a MAGNET to catch any steel bits and HOLD them.

And what scenario is it that the screen would do good? Sabotage? Mistakes? I've seen several killed by lint. yes lint. Pissed off at your boss, your competition is cheating? Take dryer lint and stick it in the valve cover. Slow death. Just like gunk death. Most engines don't have a screen you can clean, so if they get gunked too bad.....same thing. happened to my co-worker.

i remember one guy didn't have a screen and sucked a shop rag up the pickup tube. How did it get in there? Shocked to get that out of there?
but what if there WAS a screen? it would be just as bad, bat easier to fix I guess.....If he caught it in time. But what if he didn't? So, it's just pros and cons. WITH a screen you are better protected from rocks and aluminum chunks.

Without a screen you are better protected from aeration and starvation.

You burn a bearing and then have to straighten the crank, grind the crank, fix the rod, replace bearings.....compare that with the cost of an oil pump.


i think the ideal setup is magnets in the sump, a screen in the generator stand to prevent the ingress of sabotage, and to use internal engine parts that don't have pieces that fall off, and don't leave loose parts in the engine.

I like this.
But in my case I had aluminum chunks get into the pump and render it useless. In my case I noticed it right away and had the car towed home for the eventual tear down that you all have been witness to.
So I'll add a magnet to the sump and take my chances with no screen.

Sabotage it really not on my mind. I do my own builds and if I get mad at myself. I just walk away and approach the issue later. When I have a clear head.

Thank you modok.
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Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

It might be your four year old feeding the shortblock bolts to be like daddy.
I've seen that!

of course the best, IMo, was the guy who found a frog in there. figure that one out.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

modok wrote:
It might be your four year old feeding the shortblock bolts to be like daddy.
I've seen that!

of course the best, IMo, was the guy who found a frog in there. figure that one out.

.
Thanks. That is some funny shit. And my girls are grown up and married.
So one less worry.
Now if my grand kids come over to help. That's a whole other issue. Shocked
Lol!
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Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
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fivelugshortaxle
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

Wow! You don't look old enough to have kids that are married. Damn I started late.
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4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
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Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
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67rustavenger Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

Finally, I was able to disassemble the head that had the issue. Either due to my my craftwork, Or lack there of. Or a vendor issue. That remains to be determined.

It's a little late in the day to get good pics. I'll post them tomorrow.

An interesting observation. A couple of the valves were, a bit difficult to slide out of the guides. There was/is a burr on the keeper grooves that, I should have filed off before extracting the valve stem from the guide.
This (IMO) head is a door stop anyway. So I was not to worried about damaging the guides extracting the valve stems.
The valves have three keeper grooves. So, one would think that they had no play in the keeper section of the valves. Yet there was indeed a burr at the keeper section preventing the smooth withdrawal of the valve from the guide.

Another interesting observation, is that the knurling on the failed guide is rather light/faint. But that may be a byproduct of the guide riding on the valve stem while the engine was running. The guide was stuck on the valve stem, freely sliding up and down once the spring was removed.

Once the spring boss disappeared around the guide. The dual springs walked around a bit. Crushing the head washer pocket edge nearby. I didn't notice that until, I was looking there in the fading sunlight this evening.

Yet another interesting observation. Is that the valve spring bases for the 1-2intake valves are not 360° complete.
There's a slight void under the spring bases. One would think the spring base should be solidly supported.

But, Hey what do I know?
I'm just a garage hack. With little knowledge of these things.

More to come tomorrow. Stay tuned!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

Its embarrassing to admit this but I used Teflon buttons and slipper skirts on the same engine. About 300 miles into it, my oil pressure light was coming on at 60 mph. I ran it for a couple of days before someone asked me what parts I used and I realized what my problem was. The picture speaks for itself. the super sucker worked great as you can see. The tear down revealed perfect bearings so I reused them. I had to replace the thick walled jugs because they were scored by the pins. I failed to see a cracked piston which led to a catastrophic failure not long after putting the engine back together. This time it punched the case etc. Anyway, this was in reference to the use of screens.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

The groove burr happens if the keepers have not been modified to not touch each other, something I always do on a heavy sprung engine.

Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

I think you're missing what happened. The pins were able to move freely and rubbed against the cylinder walls creating a gouge. Unfortunately, I thought the pistons were undamaged and reused them. Number one must have been cracked because it came apart, bent a rod, broke the cam and punched up through the roof of the case (new case).
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: First stroker build 92X82 Reply with quote

Regarding the screen, Ellis has a good point. (Dont feel bad Ellis, I did the same oopsie on the buttons also)


You can get a new cb cut to fit sump pickup for cheap, use the stock strainer on a deep sump. That way you have a screen AND a means of extra support/stability for the pick up. After having that one lonely sump support tab break after only few miles, All future builds have gotten screens.
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