Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Q: AFM
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
equinox
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2013
Posts: 183
Location: Detroit, MI
equinox is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Q: AFM Reply with quote

I have TWO working Air Flow Meters:

AFM - 0 280 200 018
AFM - 0 280 200 020

I hve 2 questions:

Am I correct in that both can be used on my 1977 WV bus (020 direct replacement for 018)?

Am I also correct in the 020 is an updated version of the 018 and so between the 2, I should primarily use the 020??

Thanks in advance.

Robb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SGKent Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
SGKent is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

FI Corp said they use the exact same parts and are the same.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
russwiththebus
Samba Member


Joined: September 25, 2007
Posts: 930
Location: Chattanooga, TN
russwiththebus is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

I think they will work. My AFM is a 0 280 200 028 which when I look it up, says it's for a Vanagon but it works fine on my 1978.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Twitter Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Hoody
Samba Member


Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948

Hoody is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

As Steve stated, they are identical.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
furgo
Samba Member


Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
furgo is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

Just to complement the answer you already got:

equinox wrote:
Am I correct in that both can be used on my 1977 WV bus (020 direct replacement for 018)?


Yes, given the fact that they're identical.

Ratwell.com says:
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FISwap.html#compat

The Bosch datasheet says:

.. 020 - same as 018, with a different label

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


equinox wrote:
Am I also correct in the 020 is an updated version of the 018 and so between the 2, I should primarily use the 020??


As per the previous answers, they're identical, thus it does not matter which one you use.
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
equinox
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2013
Posts: 183
Location: Detroit, MI
equinox is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

Thanks guys, really appreciated!

The only difference I can see is in the flap!

The 018 has the anti-backfire diaphram, which if it does backfires, blows that out.

the 020 does NOT have this. The flap door is a solid piece of metal!

As stated, they both work and I find no noticable performance difference between the two.

However, when reading the pins on the 018, they fall to either side of the mid-range, but one setting is just ABOVE the high side! On the 020, EVERYTHING falls exactly in the middle of the range!

Soo, although both again do work, I think I'll keep the 020 newer improved version in even though not original as the 018 is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
furgo
Samba Member


Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
furgo is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:03 am    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

equinox wrote:


The 018 has the anti-backfire diaphram, which if it does backfires, blows that out.

the 020 does NOT have this. The flap door is a solid piece of metal!

Soo, although both again do work, I think I'll keep the 020 newer improved version in even though not original as the 018 is.


Interesting, thanks for reporting this. I wouldn't go as far to say the non-anti-backfire-valve one is an improved version. I've got nothing to back this assumption and someone might want to correct me, but I've always thought that the removal of the backfire valve and replacement by the rubber block on some AFMs was simply a matter of reducing cost.

I'd naturally think that the valve is more effective in relieving the pressure boost from a backfire than the flap hitting on the rubber block. On the other hand, I've also seen pictures of broken valves, so a solid flap might actually be more robust.

My AFM is a 020 and like yours, it does not have the backfire valve, it has the rubber buffer. This IAC thread seems to show that the 020 AFMs (VW 022 906 301 D) came with either variant of anti-backfire mechanism, though.

equinox wrote:
However, when reading the pins on the 018, they fall to either side of the mid-range, but one setting is just ABOVE the high side! On the 020, EVERYTHING falls exactly in the middle of the range!


Which value is it?
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SGKent Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
SGKent is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

are you aware that the only place the part number exists is on the black plastic cover? Sounds like to me someone replaced the cap on the one with the backfire prevention. I've had both 018 and 020 - neither had a backfire device in them. Both rely on compression in the well behind the door to protect from that. Does the one with the backfire prevention also have a TS1 in it?
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
equinox
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2013
Posts: 183
Location: Detroit, MI
equinox is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

What's a TS1 and I can check?!??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
furgo
Samba Member


Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
furgo is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:42 am    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

equinox wrote:
What's a TS1 and I can check?!??


Most FI buses had multiple (two) temperature sensors, hence the TSn designation:

TS1: Temperature Sensor 1 or Air Temperature sensor. It's an integral part of a 7-pin Air Flow Meter (AFM) and you can see it at the air input port in front of the flap (see picture below). They were used to measure the intake air temperature. From this, the ECU would determine air density (cold air is denser than warm air) and use it to calculate the mass of air. That is, given the air volume and air density, it can then calculate the air mass and then determine the required fuel mass for the mixture. In short, the AFM measures volumetric air flow, but mass air flow is required to calculate the mixture. m = ρ · Q, where m is air mass flow, ρ is air density and Q is air volume flow.
TS2: Temperature Sensor 2, Engine Temperature or Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor. Used by the ECU to determine engine temperature and calculate mixture enrichment. Most important during cold start.

Here's what the TS1 looks like. It's inside the whitish plastic cover that protrudes in front of the AFM' flap:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And I believe the resistance vs. temperature curve is the same as the TS2, although I've not found an authoritative source to confirm it.

Some model years had a 6-pin AFM that did not have a TS1. Quoting from the ratwell site:

Quote:
75 - 76 1/2 models models have a 6-pin AFM and an electro-vacuum EGR valve. Because they lack the air temp sensor, these models have an intake air preheat pipe that is part of the cross over pipe that's seen on the original exhaust setup.


I don't think that's your case, as you've got a late bus with the correct 7-pin AFM, so you should have a TS1.

As per measuring its value, if you followed the AFC manual procedure as you said, you already did it Smile
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
equinox
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2013
Posts: 183
Location: Detroit, MI
equinox is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

Understood 100%.

Yes, late T2 (Oct 1976) and yes, 7-pin connector.

AFM is rebuilt and replaced the temp sensor to engine also, so new (old one registered like ove 10k ohms and was screwed)!

Funny thing is I ordered a new sensor for like $40 and they are at a premium $50-60?!? but I ALREADY had bought one when the price was like $25 to keep on hand, so I have a spare or to sell!!! lol

I'll have to check if the old 018 had the TS1, but later...now off to see Star Wars!! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
equinox
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2013
Posts: 183
Location: Detroit, MI
equinox is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

Here's a pic of the 018 one. Yes, there is a TS1

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cIeOrZUxYrymQxpmG1lGnvGgdShENz2x

The new 020 looks like your photo and with the plate over the flap whole but without the screw in the middle. It's hooked up now, so unsure if a TS1 or TS2 is there...probably.

Hope the shares link works.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
furgo
Samba Member


Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
furgo is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:17 am    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

equinox wrote:
Here's a pic of the 018 one. Yes, there is a TS1

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cIeOrZUxYrymQxpmG1lGnvGgdShENz2x


Interesting, thanks for sharing this. I've marked a couple of things in your original photo, I hope you don't mind:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This AFM has clearly been reworked:

• It originally had an anti-backfire valve as per the hole in the flap. It probably broke at some point and it was fixed by means of the solid round cover and the screw
• In the absence of the anti-backfire valve, a custom rubber buffer was welded to one side. It should have the same function as the stock rubber buffers that were on some AFMs, although on these the buffer was located to stop the flap from the top, not laterally. Update: the second picture on this IAC thread shows the same side stopper, so it might actually been stock (or a standard practice for reworked AFMs).

Some more comments. Note: I'm not judging the workmanship of the rework, just stating some thoughts:

• The round cover, screw, and whatever holds the screw to the other side might add more (or less) weight than the original backfire valve. If that's a relevant amount to affect the air flow required to actuate the flap, or the flap's momentum, I don't know. But it might also have been compensated by the rebuilder by recalibrating the AFM's spring.
• I would think having the rubber stopper protecting the top side of the flap as per stock would be more effective. A lateral buffer might run into the risk of warping one side of the flap during a backfire.
• I've always thought of rubber stoppers as the cost-reducing version of the anti-backfire valve, but that's just a guess. On the other hand, having seen more than one anti-backfire valve broken might indicate that the rubber stopper are a more robust approach, even if not as effective as the original valve.

If the AFM is working fine there is most probably nothing to worry, though.

equinox wrote:
The new 020 looks like your photo and with the plate over the flap whole but without the screw in the middle.


I'm slightly confused here: in previous comments you mentioned that the 018 had the anti-backfire valve and the 020 didn't.

In any case, from what you are saying now, and from the 018 picture:

• The 018 had originally an anti-backfire valve and was reworked to be a solid flap
• The 020 has the anti-backfire valve intact.

From this I would conclude again that the two AFMs were identical. Before the rework, that is.

equinox wrote:
It's hooked up now, so unsure if a TS1 or TS2 is there...probably.


I can't think of a reason why a TS1 (air temp sensor) should not be in there. But if you still want to check without wanting to remove the AFM, you can simply unplug the connector: if it has 7 pins it should have the sensor (unless someone physically removed the sensor, but again, I wouldn't see why).

The TS2 (engine temp sensor) has nothing to do with the AFM.

Is the AFM you've got on the bus working now?
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
equinox
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2013
Posts: 183
Location: Detroit, MI
equinox is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

Thanks for the excellent feedback. A couple other comments...

1. The 018 "is" the original I'm told and had NO work on it prior to:
2. "I" was the one that cause the backfire and blew the flap!
3. The mechanic "fixed" the flap as you pointed out, but was all done during my ownership.

The 020 (later and what I would consider next revision and later model) does has the solid coin type looking thing like you showed. Sorry is I confused you, but not a mechanic, but yeah, you got it, the only only thing to add that supported your comments is the rework and blowing out of the original 018 anti-backfire valve doo-hicky (lol) was all done during my ownership, but previous to the backfire was original.

Yes, I put both the 018 and 020 swapped in nd out and are doing the same thing, so there should be nothing wrong with the 018 either, but as you indicated extra weight and rework I always wondered for the last couple of works if maybe that was an issue, but appearantly not.


Last edited by equinox on Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SGKent Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
SGKent is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

changing the weight of the door will change how it swings. The speed at which the door changes tells the ECU how much extra fuel to add for acceleration.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
equinox
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2013
Posts: 183
Location: Detroit, MI
equinox is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

Yep, understood. It doesn't appear to be a problem thou and since the 020 was made after, but 100% compatible, and readings were even more dead-buts nominal, I would like to use it instead.

Next steps is to go thru the manual and check EVERYTHING betyween New Years and the start of the season ~May (5 months! Sad and see if there is any leaks, ensure hoses are plugged and properly, ensure readings are good throughout, etc.

I should post all of the mechanic(s) paperwork and see if that helps and anyone can flag something. There are a couple things I noted in my mind, but unsure of the scope of their impact. I'll scan everything and post also as time permits!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
furgo
Samba Member


Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
furgo is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

equinox wrote:
2. "I" was the one that cause the backfire and blew the flap!


Out of interest, and from the "I'll try not to do that myself" department... how did you manage to blow the flap? Did you have an Armageddon-like backfire?

equinox wrote:
Next steps is to go thru the manual and check EVERYTHING betyween New Years and the start of the season ~May


Good luck!
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
equinox
Samba Member


Joined: April 23, 2013
Posts: 183
Location: Detroit, MI
equinox is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

"how did you manage to blow the flap?"

In short, just over-cranking. Went to go start it one time and it just was not firing and cranking. Kept trying with short stints, then on a long crank....boom! oops. stopped and towed to mechanic who notified me what happened at the time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
furgo
Samba Member


Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
furgo is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:56 am    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

equinox wrote:
"how did you manage to blow the flap?"

In short, just over-cranking. Went to go start it one time and it just was not firing and cranking. Kept trying with short stints, then on a long crank....boom! oops. stopped and towed to mechanic who notified me what happened at the time.


Interesting, thanks for the follow up.

The backfire in this case would sound to me as caused by an overly rich condition from overcranking.

I would think that the Cold Start Valve must have sprayed for a few seconds until the Thermo Time Switch cut it off after being heated up from cranking. That would have been on the first instance only.

On any subsequent cranking instance the injectors must have sprayed and contributed to enrich the mixture every time (*). That would have been the cause for the excess (unburnt) fuel to end up detonating outside the combustion chamber. But perhaps someone with more experience might want to chime in here.

(*) I think some later (non-bus) L-Jetronic ECUs had a timeout, whereby the injectors would stop spraying for a set amount of time during multiple cranking attempts to stop flooding. But ours is an analog ECU which, as far as I know, cannot keep track of cranking attempts or has such a timer.
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Q: AFM Reply with quote

furgo wrote:
equinox wrote:
"how did you manage to blow the flap?"

In short, just over-cranking. Went to go start it one time and it just was not firing and cranking. Kept trying with short stints, then on a long crank....boom! oops. stopped and towed to mechanic who notified me what happened at the time.


Interesting, thanks for the follow up.

The backfire in this case would sound to me as caused by an overly rich condition from overcranking.

I would think that the Cold Start Valve must have sprayed for a few seconds until the Thermo Time Switch cut it off after being heated up from cranking. That would have been on the first instance only.

On any subsequent cranking instance the injectors must have sprayed and contributed to enrich the mixture every time (*). That would have been the cause for the excess (unburnt) fuel to end up detonating outside the combustion chamber. But perhaps someone with more experience might want to chime in here.

(*) I think some later (non-bus) L-Jetronic ECUs had a timeout, whereby the injectors would stop spraying for a set amount of time during multiple cranking attempts to stop flooding. But ours is an analog ECU which, as far as I know, cannot keep track of cranking attempts or has such a timer.


There are a handful of items that can cause backfires. Most of them are owner or porr mechanic related.......and range from leaky intake valve seating surfaces....which is a problem in its own right but can damage the AFM .....to very incorrect valve adjustment....to incorrect ignition timing and/or advance issues.

Pretty much anything that allows an ignition source backwards past the intake valve when there is fuel and air in the port.

This can include a small glowing hot piece of carbon.....and from the most common cause I have seen for the damaging backfires on 412 and 914 1.8L engines.....it was probably carbon or a burned valve seat.

In the early days of L-jet with type 4.....1974 for 412 and 1974-75 with the 914.....it was most common to have the ugly backfire that leaves you coasting to a stop.....at part throttle driving rpm range at shift points.....and not very often at starting and warm up.

Of course those engines all had solid lifters so I do not know if that may be in the mix on the bus engines.
The early ones had no anti-backfire valve and the backfire could just wreck the AFM. By about the time most of these had a backfire.....all of the dealer replacements seemed to them have an anti backfire valve to prevent this from happening again.

There was also some evidence....a few mechanics from lomg ago stated.....that cars with really clogged up or leaky exhausts could also get an exhaust manifold backfire that was bad enough that it could cause some flashback across the cylinder. Not sure on that one but there is some overlap with some cams. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.