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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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| blues90 wrote: |
Ray I've only seen molded injector tip seals with one exception , the set I got from autozone I have not used since they look like sliced rubber hose. With the molded ones once you remove the injectors the seals tend to stay in the runner not on the injectors. This tells me the seal seals due to it being compressed and when new the plastic tip covers center them on the tip.
Seems many online Vw parts dealers sell the molded ones . Last set I got from bus depot.
I recall at some point you said the plastic covers on the injector tips do nothing other than cause possible rust on the tips . Yet without them since this is the area the seals sit against any tip seal would be a loose fit. The seal may compress and seal . I've just never removed the plastic covers.
I'm well aware that the D jet is nothing like modern FI cars which can compensate and adjust almost every aspect on the engine control. timing ,fuel and on and on. They store info and in a sense adapt to conditions the ECU is nothing like this. |
Understand what you noted ...right there.... 
So you pull the injector out and the seal stays in the runner inlet? That means that it has expanded around the injector...the ID....and was probably leaking....and has also BAKED to the runner.
Both are NOT characteristics of great quality viton. Its not JUST the fact that a seal is molded or not.....its the materials. Also...actual shape is critical because stock factory seals do not fit tightly to the injector before they are installed...they are a slip fit.
Proper molding shape...and hardness/durometer are critical to whether they work at all or not.
The way they are supposed to work...is that the double roll shape....and the CORRECT hardness of material causes a weak spot or deformation point in the o-ring. When its compressed....its SUPPOSED to flex inward gripping the injector tip harder. However.....the cheap aftermarket seals...which are about 99% of them now...do this....
The green Viton CIS injector seals...are MUCH MUCH MUCH better material...and they grip about 10X tighter ...even on the injector tip diameter without the yellow covers...when they are UNCOMPRESSED and uninstalled...than the stock ones do when fully compressed and installed.
Even the cheaper black viton CIS seals fit 10x better...they just do not last as long as the green ones...but they fit and seal far better than the stock ones.
This is the difference in the green CIS seals and the factory ones.
And
Right now the green Viton seals are at Rockauto (Beck Arnley) for $1.54 per set.
Ray |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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blues90
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Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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I just checked the injector seals . I don't see any cracks and cannot rotate any one of them. I pushed on one and it's still flexible.
I realize the green viton may be better and if I need to do this work I need new ones . Most of all the runner hoses look iffy . They are oily and this is most likely oil blown on them from under the car . |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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| blues90 wrote: |
I just checked the injector seals . I don't see any cracks and cannot rotate any one of them. I pushed on one and it's still flexible.
I realize the green viton may be better and if I need to do this work I need new ones . Most of all the runner hoses look iffy . They are oily and this is most likely oil blown on them from under the car . |
Yep....thats good that they do not turn. But I would still replace them. Dirt cheap and short work. They are 9 years old
Yes....you mean the runner to plenun boots?....yes...very common leak point....and the leaks on the runner boots are very vibration prone. Most of the time you will not catch or find vacuum leaks in the runner boots with normal methods like carb cleaner or smoke.
This is because the long runners attached to the plenum as they heat up...expqnd quite a bit and they vibrate around and flex. At start up and idle...you may have 0 vacuum leaks. As you run and warm up....you may or may not have vacuum leaks. At certain rpm ranges as vibration and harmonics happens at certain rpm ranges.....it can pull leakage fast the boot as it flexes.
Replace fhem. I also use sealant and clamp the runner end.
Ray |
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blues90
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Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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| All I can say is I'm not looking forward to taking all this stuff off. Last time was 20 years ago and I rebuilt this engine and it was out of the car. Last time I pulled the tin in the car was 1985 . Just doing the injector seals in 2009 was hard on the back and I was 60 then. |
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KTPhil 
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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| Yep, it's a real PITA, full of pinched fingers, scraped knuckles, aching back from leaning over, dropped screws and nuts... I'd replace the stubby hoses on the injectors, too, while you are at it... hell, all the engine bay fuel lines! One and done! |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:21 am Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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| blues90 wrote: |
| All I can say is I'm not looking forward to taking all this stuff off. Last time was 20 years ago and I rebuilt this engine and it was out of the car. Last time I pulled the tin in the car was 1985 . Just doing the injector seals in 2009 was hard on the back and I was 60 then. |
 I fully understand the getting older and tougher to do work part...which is why as I move along into the final build and restoration for my car....I am trying to use the best materials I can find and make as many small changes that ease or lengthen maintenance.
And if I don't seem to compliment you...let me do so now!...you are kicking ass at your age to be working on this at all in some cases!
To the point at hand....your problems with fuel mixture and running....are as we have been breaking down over the months....almost all...vacuum and fuel mixture related....at the MPS. I say this with great accuracy....because FIRST...you have vacuum leakage issues....no doubt about that at all.
That makes it an MPS issue. Because the MPS runs on stable vacuum signature. Even if your vacuum system...seal, hoses, gaskets, vacuum can etc....were perfect...your MPS may (most probably) need at least some adjustment.......however...you cannot know that and should not adjust it at all...until you get all POSSIBLE sources of vacuum leak fixed.
What you really have on your hands....is what I would call a complete...but standard reseal.
In the five year period that I was driving my 412...actually a 411 and two 412's....the complete drive train went through three cars due to various other poor drivers around me  ....with two new build engines involved....one went about 200k miles and the other about 170k....then a new build on that one that destroyed itself at 89k miles due to a mistake I made in building (not enough cam to gear clearance to survive losing a cam thrust bearing).....the gist is that in daily driving of over 200 miles per day just averaged....many times it was 500+......in hot climate and cold climate.....each engine needed a basic major "RESEAL"...about every 75K-100K miles or so....about every 18 months
By major....I mean...intake gaskets, runner boots, TB seal, fuel lines, chimney gasket, a few pushrod seals, sometimes a main seal, sometimes a CV boot....lots of little things....plus a good cleaning, some painting...sometimes an exhaust stud on the muffler or manifold...just a lot of little stuff.
And...as you note...its a beating on the knuckles and the back. you think its hard working on a type 3 engine while its in?....try working on a type 4 sedan engine while its in.....I know curse words in probably 8 languages from this now
The gist of this diatribe is this....you will have a MUCH easier time if you do a partial engine drop.
What I mean by this is put the rear wheels up on low ramps...maybe 6"-8" off the ground at most. Then put jack stands underneath and remove the ramps. You want the wheels either off the ground by a half inch or so or more. the gist is you want the rear suspension at full travel....so you get the most room to move the engine downward without disconnecting the CV's.
Make a pair of cradles out of stacked 2" x 6" or 2" x 4" or even 4" x 4"....to put under each heat exchanger. Then .....leave the CV's connected unless you need to change boots. Leave the transmission bolted up unless its time to change the front main seal or do a reseal on the two transmission sections.....and just put a floor jack underneath and lower the engine down ....to the max length of travel of the CV's....which should be pretty big like this....until it sits on the two wood block cradles.
Now move the floor jack out of the way and you can sit around this thing fairly comfortably and reach all of the seals, gaskets and fuel lines.
Ray |
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blues90
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Joined: March 14, 2009
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Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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Ray :
I never realized what aging can due until I got there.
As far as lowering the engine this not only involves the front auto trans mount which would need to be unbolted since it can break but also the heating tubes as well as the FI wire harness doesn't allow much slack on the left side. then there is the large air bellows.
I have the time yet not much in the way of jacks and last time I had the engine out to rebuild then the trans out in 2003 to rebuild I was given a used car we had at work to drive so I could take my time. Now I have to first gather all the parts and have at most a week to get this all done because I need the car for store items I can't carry home. At least I'm lucky to have a garage that not big yet at least it I pull close to the front wall I can close the door with just enough room to work on the engine and roll a creeper by.
What I usually do is just raise the rear high enough so it lessons the amount on bending over and bashing my head on the tail gate or inner opening . Just to adjust valves I need to take off the EMPI not so quite pack muffler which hangs down on the right side it even gets in the way adjusting the right rear brake with the car raised up.
That's another thing I need to address is the exhaust leak where the header fits to the right heat exchanger. I'm hoping the thin sheet aluminum I have will will fill that diameter difference . It's leaked there ever since I had to remove the stock muffler even with the J pipes I had on there years ago . The stock muffler short pipes were rusted so thin and I guess some of the exchanger pipe diameter was reduced as well . |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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Yep....chdck with others to see if the tail cone mount can pivot enough to stqy in place. But it may need to be unbolted.
Heater hoses...one screw clamp each....you may need to disconmect the cables qt the barrel clamp. Its been my experience that leaving the bellows attached to the engjne is easier to remove and install. Your experience may vary.
The EFI harness.....easjest eay is to tilt the ECU out of the cavity.....remove the one clamp screw, slide off the gray cover and grab the handle and pull the plug. Stuff it down tjrough the body hole along with the grommet and leave everything attached to the engine.
Whil the engine is down and runners are off.....its a great time to remove the grounding star fitting and clean everything up qnd even crimp on a few new terminals if necessary. I would also reseal the back plate on the plenum. Ray |
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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I agree that the Type 3 (and I bet Type 4) cars needed a pretty thorough "rubber service" about every 75K as posted, depending on miles driven and how. Ray's list makes sense. Add front axle tie rod/BJ boots as well.
This is a lot of maintenance but is essential to good running and long life. This, along with oil screen cleaning and valve adjustment, is why the VW became too expensive to maintain. VW tried with its "Diagnosis" plug and "fix only what's needed" theory, but combined with the associated "let us look things over every once in a while, and fix all the little things that will bog you down if ignored" servicing.
If we do it ourselves, no biggie (other than the backache) but paying someone to do it is cost-prohibitive. The idea is to make a 1-3 day ordeal of it, then button it up and not have to put up with constant niggling things. Reliability is your reward. |
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blues90
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Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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| Quote: |
| This is a lot of maintenance but is essential to good running and long life. This, along with oil screen cleaning and valve adjustment, is why the VW became too expensive to maintain. VW tried with its "Diagnosis" plug and "fix only what's needed" theory, but combined with the associated "let us look things over every once in a while, and fix all the little things that will bog you down if ignored" servicing. |
| Quote: |
| If we do it ourselves, no biggie (other than the backache) but paying someone to do it is cost-prohibitive. The idea is to make a 1-3 day ordeal of it, then button it up and not have to put up with constant niggling things. Reliability is your reward. |
Yes true if you have the money and can find the parts in one place.
In the last 2 years it's become if it's not one thing just hold your breath and be assured you bought some time. I've spent at least $600 on things that were just working fine , then it leaped out off the bushes .
I'm far behind on quite a few maintenance issues . just when I try to plan where the funds for parts will come from to address those something leaps out of the bushes .
I started with the engine and gen brushes just valve adjustments and oil and thinking about the issue I brought up here . Then suddenly the steering felt sloppy and a cluck began so then it was ties rod ends .
I got this car strictly because I wanted something that didn't guzzle fuel like my 69 Ford E 300 HD super van 8 lug nut van did. One complete engine rebuild after 250,000 miles done without removing the engine because a valve burnt . Just touch the key and it was running. If I'd known it would require what they do no thanks. Without that van this car would not have been possible in many ways.
I have regrets , man do I . One is I got into the trade in the first place , there are more. . I am not alone.
I edited this post because I was up late and had on beer to many .
It's a shame I can't find some way to do a smoke test to find vacuum leaks . I know some parts are old and I may find after changing all the seals and go that far it was just one hose I missed. |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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| blues90 wrote: |
I got this car strictly because I wanted something that didn't guzzle fuel like my 69 Ford E 300 HD super van 8 lug nut van did. One complete engine rebuild after 250,000 miles done without removing the engine because a valve burnt . Just touch the key and it was running. If I'd known it would require what they do no thanks. Without that van this car would not have been possible in many ways.
I have regrets , man do I . One is I got into the trade in the first place , there are more. |
Yup, exactly why I bought a Toyota Corolla (well Geo Prizm), and didn't look back. I got lucky in that the PO said I could make payments on it (he wanted it gone), and would trade some labor for it. That helped a lot, and it's been a great little car that doesn't cost a lot to own. In my case I've got more in the exhaust system over the last 6 years than any other part of the car (the salt is hard on it, and it's on it's 2nd replacement since I've had it). Last fall I picked up a 99 Honda Accord for 350 bucks. It needed some work, but was priced right. So far I've probably got another 4 or 5 hundred into it. It's a decent car that rides nice, everything (including the AC) works, and it has a MT in it. I've actually been driving it more often than I thought I would.
I think part of the reason for not driving my type 3 as often as I used to, is the repop parts just suck. I mean a sunroof seal that wears thru in a year, and all it did was sit in the yard and not get used really gets to me. The CIP one I had in there prior took 11 years to get ALMOST as bad as that one. The new tail light housing to fender seals are already cracking again (was supposed to be the better version from ISP according to them), but at least they went a full year before they cracked instead of 6 months. The new "blocked style" windshield seal still hasn't completely laid down either. But, at least it's not leaking on my floor ...yet.
I am however surprised at how long my TMI velour seat covers have lasted. The ones in my wife's Fastback are now 27 years old (replaced in 1990), and those in the Notch are 17 years old (replaced in 2000) and both are still in very good condition with no rips or tears, although there is some color fading in the upper corners of the rear seats and head rests.
Sorry, I started rambling there. But just a few observations to note. The wife's Fastback with FI still runs great, and so does my Notch, so I can't complain too much. Maybe in 2018 I'll change the DoT 3 brake fluid in them, since it hasn't been done in a while.  Hopefully I can find some time to do that (more of that maintenance stuff to do).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
I got this car strictly because I wanted something that didn't guzzle fuel like my 69 Ford E 300 HD super van 8 lug nut van did. One complete engine rebuild after 250,000 miles done without removing the engine because a valve burnt . Just touch the key and it was running. If I'd known it would require what they do no thanks. Without that van this car would not have been possible in many ways.
I have regrets , man do I . One is I got into the trade in the first place , there are more. |
| Quote: |
| Yup, exactly why I bought a Toyota Corolla (well Geo Prizm), and didn't look back. I got lucky in that the PO said I could make payments on it (he wanted it gone), and would trade some labor for it. That helped a lot, and it's been a great little car that doesn't cost a lot to own. In my case I've got more in the exhaust system over the last 6 years than any other part of the car (the salt is hard on it, and it's on it's 2nd replacement since I've had it). Last fall I picked up a 99 Honda Accord for 350 bucks. It needed some work, but was priced right. So far I've probably got another 4 or 5 hundred into it. It's a decent car that rides nice, everything (including the AC) works, and it has a MT in it. I've actually been driving it more often than I thought I would. |
To be honest , I never liked auto trans cars or trucks. I just happened to be wondering around their ( small ford dealership I worked at the time) very small used car lot since it was one of those show days and the Square back just stood out . I've seen a few on the road here and didn't know a thing about them. A girl I dated in IL in 69 , her father had a fast back with stick I know it had fuel injection because he told me he was having issues . Car seems to move along quite well with 4 people.
I saw automatic and opened the engine lid thinking they had carbs then remembered. The auto trans part , well I had second guesses . I had a 66 bug in 1970 and it seemed to go along with 3 people unless there was a IL head wind then you were int 3 rd to 4th and back again. I had a 68 rag top Karman Ghia with a 1500 4 speed it was a fun car no matter the rusted floor.
Yet most everything else I owned was a stick . Since many decades ago the 66 and Ghia seemed ok once I got the Van in 78 bought it from my father and altered it my way . before I left FL in 81 I removed the column shift and adapted a cheap 3 speed floor unit mounted it on the left 302 V8 head and reversed the trans shift arms 180 so it would still be the proper pattern and had this at most 13" steering wheel on it and with no power steering and 10" wide front tire width and 12" rear on 8 lug 15" mag wheels no power anything. That 302 once I put a holley 4 barrel on it and found the stock mustang intake it was fast and no hill would slow it down.
I'm used to this 1600 yet you get on a fair incline I hope I'm moving or it's not going to fly up the hill. I still miss power and a stick .
| Quote: |
| I think part of the reason for not driving my type 3 as often as I used to, is the repop parts just suck. I mean a sunroof seal that wears thru in a year, and all it did was sit in the yard and not get used really gets to me. The CIP one I had in there prior took 11 years to get ALMOST as bad as that one. The new tail light housing to fender seals are already cracking again (was supposed to be the better version from ISP according to them), but at least they went a full year before they cracked instead of 6 months. The new "blocked style" windshield seal still hasn't completely laid down either. But, at least it's not leaking on my floor ...yet. |
It seems now days most things are like this , not only repop parts . most of just the household items people buy all the time are just crap and a joke.
| Quote: |
| I am however surprised at how long my TMI velour seat covers have lasted. The ones in my wife's Fastback are now 27 years old (replaced in 1990), and those in the Notch are 17 years old (replaced in 2000) and both are still in very good condition with no rips or tears, although there is some color fading in the upper corners of the rear seats and head rests. |
I'm surprised how fast close to 33 years since I got this car went by and if I look at my interior mostly the front carpet and other areas that are screaming for help.
Sorry, I started rambling there. But just a few observations to note. The wife's Fastback with FI still runs great, and so does my Notch, so I can't complain too much. Maybe in 2018 I'll change the DoT 3 brake fluid in them, since it hasn't been done in a while. Hopefully I can find some time to do that (more of that maintenance stuff to do). |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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| blues90 wrote: |
To be honest , I never liked auto trans cars or trucks. I just happened to be wondering around their ( small ford dealership I worked at the time) very small used car lot since it was one of those show days and the Square back just stood out . I've seen a few on the road here and didn't know a thing about them. A girl I dated in IL in 69 , her father had a fast back with stick I know it had fuel injection because he told me he was having issues . Car seems to move along quite well with 4 people.
I saw automatic and opened the engine lid thinking they had carbs then remembered. The auto trans part , well I had second guesses . I had a 66 bug in 1970 and it seemed to go along with 3 people unless there was a IL head wind then you were int 3 rd to 4th and back again. I had a 68 rag top Karman Ghia with a 1500 4 speed it was a fun car no matter the rusted floor.
Yet most everything else I owned was a stick . Since many decades ago the 66 and Ghia seemed ok once I got the Van in 78 bought it from my father and altered it my way . before I left FL in 81 I removed the column shift and adapted a cheap 3 speed floor unit mounted it on the left 302 V8 head and reversed the trans shift arms 180 so it would still be the proper pattern and had this at most 13" steering wheel on it and with no power steering and 10" wide front tire width and 12" rear on 8 lug 15" mag wheels no power anything. That 302 once I put a holley 4 barrel on it and found the stock mustang intake it was fast and no hill would slow it down.
I'm used to this 1600 yet you get on a fair incline I hope I'm moving or it's not going to fly up the hill. I still miss power and a stick .
It seems now days most things are like this , not only repop parts . most of just the household items people buy all the time are just crap and a joke.
I'm surprised how fast close to 33 years since I got this car went by and if I look at my interior mostly the front carpet and other areas that are screaming for help. |
Oh man do I remember those days. A 13" Grant steering wheel, manual steering, manual drum brakes, crappy 3 on the floor (replaced with a Hurst shifter) and a "fire breathing" 250 cu in 6 cylinder in a 2 door 70 Nova. Man I drove that thing everywhere. My girlfriend at the time (my future wife) and I had an even better time in it. 
Yeah, I really wasn't big on automatics back then either. In fact it would be another 6 or 7 years later that I would have a car with one (a 73 Vega with an engine out of a 76 model). I got it for my wife to drive, and boy did she. She put a lot of miles on that car. We even brought it back to Michigan when we moved up here in 86, and again when we moved into this house in 88. Since then I've had a few AT vehicles over the years, and quite a few V8's too. These days it's been more V6's and vehicles with real heat (FWD cars), as I keep the VWs out of the salt.
Don't get me wrong, I had a 76 Bug (got it without an engine, and put 1 in) that I drove 38 miles each way to work. In the winter months the heat worked great down the freeway, but for the 3 miles of city driving, the windows would fog up in a hurry (1 morning it was -9*F without the windchill) and it would start to get cold inside. After blowing up 2 engines in that car, I decided to find a job closer to home, and used the bug as a winter car, and the 70 Fastback as a summer car. Traded the Vega off and got a 67 short box Chevy to use as an all around vehicle. You just had to watch what you put in the box, as the wooden floor had a hole in it.
But then we've loaded up my wife's Fastback (it's got AT and FI in it now) with 4 full sized adults, and it was no problem for cruising around Ann Arbor/Yipsy area when she took it to the 2006 type 3 Invasion. I think the big key with it, is that it's been kept stock, and well tuned over the years. Yes, it came home on a roll back once, but it was still carbed back then (clogged strainer in the fuel tank), and it prompted me to gather up what was needed to put the FI back on it. By the end of 2005, I had what I needed, and swapped it over. Naturally the Bosch pump died right away, but after talking to Russ, I went with the Airtex E2000 and it's fine ever since. About the only thing I've ever really had to do, was bump the idle speed up in it, as it liked to stall in gear with your foot on the brake, as I set the idle in park after being warmed up, instead of in gear with the handbrake on.
But yeah, I see all sorts of crap being made these days. In fact we just replaced a 2 year old toaster. I mean come on, only 2 years of use?? It was a "high dollar" Black and Decker model. Or the washing machine that died a couple of years ago (motor fried, and the repair guy said it would be 2/3rds of what a new machine would cost to just replace the motor). I mean it was 7 years old, but it was new 7 years prior. Is that all it's going to last? If so we're halfway thru this ones lifetime. Damn, the old (R-12) fridge I have in the shop (beer cooler) is still working after all these years (I got it used from a buddy back in 96), and they can't make a washer to go at least 10 years without having to buy a commercial unit?
I hear you on being surprised at how quick time goes by. July 4th of 2018 will be 30 years since I first saw the 70 Fastback, and 29 years since I bought it and drove it home (1278 miles).  It's hard to believe we've had it that long (28 years already), and it still looks better than the day I bought it (was a little rough around the edges, and had the right door and rear fender replaced). The carpet (from Rocky Mountain Motorworks) still looks great after all these years, seats are still nice, and I'm going to put the new dash pad (from Herman) in to get it to look more stock (versus the 71-73 repop dash pad). I've already picked up a set of year of manufacture plates (brand new old stock) to go on it, so that'll be the finishing touch.
Damn, there I go again rambling on, and reminiscing.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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I haven't been able to keep up with repairs.
On the engine , I'm just going to change the vacuum lines to the auto trans and the one from the AAR to the throttle body and check the PCV valve itself .
I know the vacuum line from the AAR to throttle is one I put on there in 85 and used it again in 97 and it's still there. I opened the throttle and got my finger over the AAR throttle port and blew into the hose from the oil bath and was not able to blow through it . This does not mean it's not leaking.
Then if I see no change then I'll replace the runner sleeves and intake gaskets and tackle the oil cooler seals. |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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Looking at the spare throttle body I have here. I see there are possible leaks even at the cold start valve gasket. Even the air temp sensor.
Then there is the PCV system. On Rennlist and I looked up the PCV number and it's the same one for T-3's and Early T-4 .
Reading on how it works it is mostly affected by crank case pressure, Meaning even at high idle intake vacuum from the IAD port what holds the Valve closed it case pressure. This is at almost any engine speed and load which seems odd. Most of the time there are three small bypass slots on the breather side of the PCV that allow vacuum through even when the PCV is closed. When it says closed the only part that uses the word closed in engine off. Well no kidding then you have no vacuum or case pressure.
The other part the actual PCV disc plays is if you have a back fire the intake pressure closes the disc no allowing the case fumes to explode.
The only other part in the PCV is a spring which holds the disc closed and determines how much the valve opens due mainly to crankcase pressure.
I suppose if the spring is weak from decades of being in service it may open more than needed . The rest is the vacuum applied to a rather small disc /valve size and if the spring is weak I imagine the disc opens further.
I'm not sure if it's an issue or not. If you remove the small breather cap what this does is allow crank case pressure to escape and not be working on the PCV disc. I imagine even old breather caps will not seal fully. I have not idea if when knew they were a flexible hard rubber or almost hard plastic as mine are.
Here is a link for the PCV operation if anyone is interested .
https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/PCV.htm |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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Yesterday I removed the oil bath and looked at some of the vacuum lines.
I have a clamp on the one from the IAD to the AAR and must have put the clamp on before bolting the IAD onto the case. With the oil cooler in the way I can't loosen the clamp.
The one thing that really stands out are the runner to IAD sleeves. Every one is very oily to the point they drip on the case and I see place the oil comes from . The back cover has a little oil the runners have none .
The IAD inside has an oil film and it's not trans oil and I recall using 20/50 oil in the oil bath and filled it to the marks . Last time reading the Bentley it specified 30 weight oil and the amount so that's what I added and also cleaned the oil bath and rubber elbow since there was wet oil there. Maybe I over filled it before and the lighter oil didn't help.
Point is since the sleeves are cloth covered and oil soaked and the cloth seems to hold oil I can't locate where the oil is coming from . It's not on the engine lid or the auto trans converter cooling fins blowing back.
I can't imagine the oil came from inside the IAD and worked it's way through the rubber hose into the cloth covering. If this were the case all 4 runner sleeves would have to have a hell of a vacuum leak.
When I replaced these in 97 the only one oily was #3 and it took a while to get this way . It just seems odd that the only area on the entire upper engine that has wet oil are the 4 runner sleeves. The oil is dripping down on the right side runner sleeves a bit mainly on the cold start valve and it's plug.
I know the case gets hot enough to bake on oil yet this looks the same as it has for years. It's just thin coat that can be wiped off .
I want to clean the sleeves of oil . What can I use to cover them with to tell where the oil is coming from once I clean them off? Something that won't melt. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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The oil IS coming from inside the runners.
Some does come from the oil bath air cleandr but most comes crom oil vapor through the head vents and through the oil seperator.....and.....it can and will be worse if the PCV is not operatiny perfectly.
What you cannot see because of the cloth braid on the outside of the runner boots.....is the cracking from age, heat, vibration and oil.
Ask yourself this......do you have or have you seen on your vehicle.....any cracking, brittle cloth braided fuel lines?.....if so....ask yourself how old they are. Bear in mind the runner boots are made of the same material as the fuel lines.
Now compare the age of the runner boots. How old are they? 1997?....20 years old? They are way past shot. Oil vapor seeps through from the cracks in the rubber inside and oozes out through the cloth braid. Ray |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
The oil IS coming from inside the runners.
Some does come from the oil bath air cleandr but most comes crom oil vapor through the head vents and through the oil seperator.....and.....it can and will be worse if the PCV is not operatiny perfectly.
What you cannot see because of the cloth braid on the outside of the runner boots.....is the cracking from age, heat, vibration and oil.
Ask yourself this......do you have or have you seen on your vehicle.....any cracking, brittle cloth braided fuel lines?.....if so....ask yourself how old they are. Bear in mind the runner boots are made of the same material as the fuel lines.
Now compare the age of the runner boots. How old are they? 1997?....20 years old? They are way past shot. Oil vapor seeps through from the cracks in the rubber inside and oozes out through the cloth braid. Ray |
Sure I've seen braided fuel lines crack and leak.
The runner sleeves . When I replaced them in 97 it didn't take very long before I noticed # 3 was oily it was less than a year.
Last time when I replaced the PCV hose to the IAD from a cloth hose to a none cloth hose in 2009 there was no oil in the old hose. I haven't looked inside the replacement hose.
The hoses that connect to each head to the oil bath have no oil in them, they are dry and when the fresh air to the heads begins. The PCV is at the other end so if I remove the PCV hose any oil residue would have to be in there since it's at this point is the path to the IAD.
What are you saying, the oil seeps out when the engine is shut down? I ask because when it's running and there are cracks in the runner sleeves and high vacuum at idle or letting off the gas all the sleeves would become a vacuum leak . If oil vapors can get through surly air can get through . If that's the case my engine should not even run unless vacuum some how closes the cracks or closes them enough where there is still at least enough of a vacuum leak to affect the MPS .
I'm confused because I've seen photo's of old FI T-3 engines with no oil seeping through the runner sleeves and never found a post on this site bringing this issue up other than me. Perhaps they don't have the PCV , most I've seen don't and they don't seem to have issues with oil sludge. As long as you change the oil when you should. You can't get a PCV any longer and the fixed restriction requires adjusting the Map. And it's still going to draw in oil fumes maybe even more. That puts me right back to where I am now.
I'm working on finding new runner hoses. Only a few on- line places sell them and charge a lot for shipping if you order less than $99 worth of parts.
Last edited by blues90 on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: A few days ago I thought I heard slight pinging |
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I also lean toward leaky hoses (oil and air) and a faulty PVC system. It could explain both the oily hoses and your other engine symptoms.
Only when those are set straight can you even think of tweaking the MPS.
It's a little drive, but like I suggested, call Mario at Small Car in Reseda. He should be able to get the proper hoses.
ISPwest sells non-OEM style, but I'm not sure of the shipping cost. |
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