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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:46 pm Post subject: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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Are there variations on the 28PICT theme? The back of the choke looks very different on these two:
I wasn't able to find a "28PICTs through the years" website. Thanks in advance for any resources you can share.
Scott |
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BulliBill Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004 Posts: 4574 Location: St Charles, MO
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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From memory, without looking it up, I believe the one on the right is the earliest version of the 28PICT and the one on the left is the later version... Someone will jump on here with much more detail...
Bill _________________ I'm looking for these license plate frames for my fleet:
Coeur D'Alene - Lake Shore Volkswagen
Mission VW - San Fernando
Thornton VW - Stockton
Thanks for any help! |
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nlorntson Crazy VW Lady
Joined: March 13, 2004 Posts: 3783 Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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^^ I agree with Bill. the one on the right was used in 62 and the other I think roughly into 63.
left one is a 28PICT, right one is a 28PICT-1 starting in November 63. |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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Thank you both for the feedback. Can either of you point me to a site or book that highlights the differences?
Scott
PS: Plus a big shout out to the Twin Cities, where I lived and played music for decades. |
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Stocknazi Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 5150
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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nlorntson wrote: |
^^ I agree with Bill. the one on the right was used in 62 and the other I think roughly into 63.
left one is a 28PICT, right one is a 28PICT-1 starting in November 63. |
Left carb is a 28PICT-1, right is the 28PICT.
The 28PICT-1 used a redesigned choke setup and used the triangle-shaped vacuum diaphragm. The 28PICT carb had a multi-piece choke with a steel ceramic element cover. I believe the 28PICT had issues with the choke piston sticking in the bore and causing the choke to not operate properly.
The Bently has all the info and carb part numbers. _________________ WANTED:
58 Westfalia cabinet knobs (3 needed), roof rack, and (7) privy tent poles (silver painted).
"When the people are afraid of the government, that's tyranny. But when the government is afraid of the people, that's liberty."
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Jefferson
Last edited by Stocknazi on Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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nlorntson Crazy VW Lady
Joined: March 13, 2004 Posts: 3783 Location: Twin Cities, MN
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69830 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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StockNazi wrote: |
Left carb is a 28PICT-1, right is the 28PICT.
The 28PICT-1 used a redesigned choke setup and used the triangle-shaped vacuum diaphragm. The 28PICT carb had a multi-piece choke with a steel ceramic element cover. |
This.
Also:
If the left one says 28 PICT on the bottom 1/2, it means someone put a PICT-1 top on it. You can do that to upgrade it.
The 28 PICT on the right should not have that little hole in the choke cap either. _________________ How to Post Photos
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Stocknazi Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 5150
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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EverettB wrote: |
The 28 PICT on the right should not have that little hole in the choke cap either. |
My guess is someone drilled the cap to try and clean the piston bore. _________________ WANTED:
58 Westfalia cabinet knobs (3 needed), roof rack, and (7) privy tent poles (silver painted).
"When the people are afraid of the government, that's tyranny. But when the government is afraid of the people, that's liberty."
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Jefferson |
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BarryL Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 14271 Location: Casa de Oro, California
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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Early piston style choke vacuum-opener uses small diameter ceramic heating element with one rivet and later diaphragm style choke vacuum-opener uses large diameter ceramic heating element and 2 rivet contact. Some variations on element contact tab and rivets occur. I don't think there was a 12 volt small diameter ceramic element except maybe Porsche. |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69830 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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BarryL wrote: |
I don't think there was a 12 volt small diameter ceramic element except maybe Porsche. |
I have not seen one that fits the 28 PICT.
This is one of the options available if you move to 12-volt, install a 28 PICT-1 top so you can run a 12v choke _________________ How to Post Photos
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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EverettB:
Quote: |
If the left one says 28 PICT on the bottom 1/2, it means someone put a PICT-1 top on it. You can do that to upgrade it.
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That pretty much solves my mystery. Both say 28PICT, but if one is a combination of parts including non-28PICT sources, that explains the differences.
Thanks to everyone for the help, including the link to the Look Listen booklet. I have the Bentley 1950-1962 Workshop Manual, but I assume it doesn't show the PICT-1 parts because they came later.
Can anyone suggest a general resource for carb overhauls? The Bentley suggests steps, but often assumes I've done this before.
Presumably, the 28PICT with the hole in the choke cap is operational. It's my backup if my overhaul of the 28PICT that came with the bus is unsuccessful. Is that hole a big warning flag or is it something I could try to fix without tearing that one apart, too?
Scott |
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nlorntson Crazy VW Lady
Joined: March 13, 2004 Posts: 3783 Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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I've restored dozens of these 28PICT carbs. They are a fun, and easy little carb to do.
You'll need to fix that hole either replace the cover with a freeze plug or if it's a spare, maybe a little JB weld. |
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BarryL Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 14271 Location: Casa de Oro, California
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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Skip over any drivel you don't get:
Longmont1302 wrote: |
Can anyone suggest a general resource for carb overhauls? |
If you buy the carb rebuild kit it comes with all the gaskets and miscellaneous for 1950-1978 carbs. The instructions have a blow-up that is really all you need to get it together plus there are instructions. There are two or three blow-ups; just use the one for your style.
Take your carb all apart except for the throttle mechanism and clean it in Berrymans Cleaner but wear good gloves. Take photos of any "before" areas of concern so you can find your way back in the forest. I like to blow through all the various passageways and grease any moving external part as it goes together.
The pump diaphram cover should only be tightened while pushing the lever in so as to un-stress the rubber four corners. You'll get it as you go.
Lightly tighten the idle mix screw to the bottom then back it out 2.5 turns.
NOW TAKE WARNING: the pipe that lets fuel into the top of the carb needs to be removed and installed better. There is a thread somewhere that someone could link you to for doing that upgrade.
Longmont1302 wrote: |
Presumably, the 28PICT with the hole in the choke cap is operational. |
If it was acting like a carburetor before then it will still work but the hole is someone's attempt at helping the electric choke operate the choke arm as apparently the vacuum draw galley is plugged up.
Longmont1302 wrote: |
Is that hole a big warning flag or is it something I could try to fix without tearing that one apart, too? |
The hole and what it bypassed will have to be addressed before the piston type vacuum release of the choke will operate correctly 100%.
Longmont1302 wrote: |
I have the Bentley 1950-1962 Workshop Manual, but I assume it doesn't show the PICT-1 parts because they came later. |
Mostly the top 1/2 of the carb is what is different except for 2mm of venturi throat. There are things like the throttle arm is an "innie" vs "outie" and the clocking of the throttle shaft is different but you won't be changing that stuff so don't overburden yourself with the lack of knowing all those subtleties.
Does that Bentley show the different galleys and passageways the various fuel circuits follow at the beginning of the carburetor section? |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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nlorntson wrote: |
.
You'll need to fix that hole either replace the cover with a freeze plug or if it's a spare, maybe a little JB weld. |
JB Weld sounds like a good tip for this spare. Thanks.
Scott |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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Thanks, BarryL, for the tips.
BarryL wrote: |
NOW TAKE WARNING: the pipe that lets fuel into the top of the carb needs to be removed and installed better. There is a thread somewhere that someone could link you to for doing that upgrade. |
I'll look for that.
BarryL wrote: |
Does that Bentley show the different galleys and passageways the various fuel circuits follow at the beginning of the carburetor section? |
Yes, it does, however, I need to study that in the morning. At this time of night, it just makes me drowsy.
Thanks again,
Scott |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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I am in the process of rebuilding my 28 PICT.
The gasket that came off the old needle valve (seen at left) seems it was made of some kind of pliable gasket material. As near as I can tell, the only gaskets that came with the Radke rebuild kit that will fit are brass, which seem a bit harder.
I was unsure whether to use the new brass or the old gasket. The Radke directions say to use the 1 mm gasket which doesn't seem helpful. I ended up using the new brass.
It looks like there's another brass gasket or washer, likely for the Main Jet Carrier.
I guess my question is this: are there parts in the rebuild kit I should skip over in favor of reusing the original parts? In general, it would seem like a good idea to replace gaskets, but what about the cool old Solex float? The studier diaphragm? The diaphragm spring?
Any suggestions welcome.
Scott |
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nlorntson Crazy VW Lady
Joined: March 13, 2004 Posts: 3783 Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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Use the old needle valve and seal if possible. The new valves seem to fail or be bad right out of the kit. |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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nlorntson wrote: |
Use the old needle valve and seal if possible. The new valves seem to fail or be bad right out of the kit. |
Thanks for the suggestion. Simply playing with both needle valves confirms that the replacement is much more likely to stick in the up position (not letting any gas pass even though the float is down).
Scott |
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BarryL Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 14271 Location: Casa de Oro, California
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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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Not to contradict nlorntson as you want the most reliable/sealing valve but wash the new needle valve before you call it stuck. I like the 1mm copper seal, myself, but the fiber ones seal a smidge better although they crush.
The main jet/bowl drain plug usually have the red fiber washer (the tight fit one) but check for weeping after a few miles as some fiber washers are junk. |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: Two Different 28PICT Carburetors |
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BarryL wrote: |
NOW TAKE WARNING: the pipe that lets fuel into the top of the carb needs to be removed and installed better. There is a thread somewhere that someone could link you to for doing that upgrade. |
Hi Barry,
Thanks for this advice - the inlet pipe is indeed loose on our 28PICT. I found a thread about using a wire as a safety leash (and adding some locktite): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=553008
Is that the thread/upgrade you had in mind?
-Scott |
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