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Max Welton
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
Most distributors are at max advance by 3000 RPM. Above 3000 RPM while under load it doesn't matter which one you have they all do the same thing. Where a distributor curve matters, and where they are different, is in the 1000-2800 RPM range.

Right. The picture in the original post is a type-2 which is what got me thinking about this.

Granted his 1776 offers much more than a 36 and we don't know what the gearing is. But we know he's pushing a bus around and talking about a long distance hauler application. He will be operating under significant load most of the time.

So I'm saying that once he gets to 3k the differences in curve between various distributors won't matter much. And a load-sensitive (SVDA) unit won't get him anything. All he needs is stability and simplicity. A german 009 (assuming minimal scatter) seems like it should be about as good as he will get.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

Max Welton wrote:
All he needs is stability and simplicity. A german 009 (assuming minimal scatter) seems like it should be about as good as he will get.

Max

Agreed... a Bosch GERMAN 009 in good condition will perform the same as other mechanical only distributors once they all reach full advance.. say 3500rpm.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

A german 009 with points will never match CB's rtr magnaspark as far as durability goes, drivability? hands down CB's stuff
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
A german 009 with points will never match CB's rtr magnaspark as far as durability goes, drivability? hands down CB's stuff


I guess it depends on your definition of durability. The 009 in the car in my avatar has about 80k on it from two different engines. Sure, there's been tune up parts replaced as needed, but everything inside is still in excellent shape. I'm sure Glenn has some high milage 010's as well. How many Magnaspark distributors have 80k on them? Nothings made with OEM quality/durability in mind in the Aircooled aftermarket, so only time will tell. Unless you have a Black Box to design your own advance curve, out of the box, CB's distributor doesn't seem to have any more adjustability for drivability than a MSD distributor.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

The 010 in my 2180 now has over 200,000 miles, that i put on it. I put over 120,000 on it before it's first rebuilt. I rebuilt it a second time, most for cosmetic reasons and it has 40,000 since. All major parts, springs, bushings, weights, mainshaft and cam are original.

I know the Pertronix billet is a copy of the MSD. I've not seen a CB in person, but it sure looks the same.

Let's see, in 50 years if these aftermarket ones are still in service. I suspect my 010 will... but I won't.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
The 010 in my 2180 now has over 200,000 miles, that i put on it. I put over 120,000 on it before it's first rebuilt. I rebuilt it a second time, most for cosmetic reasons and it has 40,000 since. All major parts, springs, bushings, weights, mainshaft and cam are original.

I know the Pertronix billet is a copy of the MSD. I've not seen a CB in person, but it sure looks the same.

Let's see, in 50 years if these aftermarket ones are still in service. I suspect my 010 will... but I won't.


Let me see your 010 do almost 1200 miles in Baja without even having to look at it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
Glenn wrote:
The 010 in my 2180 now has over 200,000 miles, that i put on it. I put over 120,000 on it before it's first rebuilt. I rebuilt it a second time, most for cosmetic reasons and it has 40,000 since. All major parts, springs, bushings, weights, mainshaft and cam are original.

I know the Pertronix billet is a copy of the MSD. I've not seen a CB in person, but it sure looks the same.

Let's see, in 50 years if these aftermarket ones are still in service. I suspect my 010 will... but I won't.


Let me see your 010 do almost 1200 miles in Baja without even having to look at it.

Other than the dirt and dust, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

But if i as serious about doing a 1200 mile offroad race, i'd go crankfire.

When i ran a CDI ignition, I put 24,000 miles on a set of points before i decided to replace them for the heck of it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
mcmscott wrote:
Glenn wrote:
The 010 in my 2180 now has over 200,000 miles, that i put on it. I put over 120,000 on it before it's first rebuilt. I rebuilt it a second time, most for cosmetic reasons and it has 40,000 since. All major parts, springs, bushings, weights, mainshaft and cam are original.

I know the Pertronix billet is a copy of the MSD. I've not seen a CB in person, but it sure looks the same.

Let's see, in 50 years if these aftermarket ones are still in service. I suspect my 010 will... but I won't.


Let me see your 010 do almost 1200 miles in Baja without even having to look at it.

Other than the dirt and dust, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

But if i as serious about doing a 1200 mile offroad race, i'd go crankfire.

When i ran a CDI ignition, I put 24,000 miles on a set of points before i decided to replace them for the heck of it.



Proof is in the pudding,,, Do it. I have..
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

I bet this dune buggy wasn't running a Magnaspark.
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mcmscott wrote:
Proof is in the pudding,,, Do it. I have..

So are you saying, every VW that did the Baja had a Magnaspark?

How did they do it in the 60s and 70? I bet they had 010 or 009s.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

I was just trying to assess the original posters question and need. It isn't a drag car or a desert racer or a lightweight bug driving around town.

If the 009 he already has is in spec there is not much to be gained by anything I've seen suggested.

And that was his question.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

Max Welton wrote:
If the 009 he already has is in spec there is not much to be gained by anything I've seen suggested.

And that was his question.

Max

You'll get better low end torque and acceleration with a 019, but the 009 will work. I know because in 1980, I had a 1776 with dual Dells, W110, 40x35 heads and a 1-3/8" heads and single QP. I switched from a German 009 to a 019 and my seat-of-the-pants meter notice an improvement.

But then a good used 019 could be had for $20.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
I switched from a German 009 to a 019 and my seat-of-the-pants meter notice an improvement.

He certainly won't feel it as much in a bus. Wink

Max
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

Cheapest thing to do is just leave it as it.

Though my friend has a early Bay with a 1776, dual IDFs and a 010. He switched from a 009 and won't go back.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

dgsaz wrote:

I'm a bit hesitant to trust it on a 3600 mile trip next summer.

So with that said, should I stick with the 009 or look into another distributor?

dgsaz

So to answer the original post:

If it's not given you and problems, i would assume it's good for a 3600 mile trip.

If you want to replace it, i'd stay away from the Chinese aftermarket 009s and SVDA. I'd get a CB Magnaspark (CB makes great products) or a rebuild BOSCH GERMAN distributor.

These will be the most reliable.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

fivelugshortaxle wrote:
Pruneman99 wrote:
Never heard of a GB 009 but I don't doubt you. I'm sure it's a quality unit, and there is nothing wrong with a 009 per se. The issue is with all the crap 009's on the market that ain't worth a crap. I have a Bosch 009 that I ran for years. It was paired with a bocar PICT 34 and that's not really a good match, but it was fine. I bet if it was a Chinese knockoff 009, it would have a flat spot to hell as others have reported.

With your duals, a quality 009 is fine. Would a 010 or a 019 give you a better curve? Maybe, maybe not over a GB 009. There most likely would be SOME gain, but it might be minimal.

But after 27 years, maybe it's time to rebuild your distributor with new felt washers, clean, re-lube, and reset end play. If the distributor has huge amounts of end play it can cause timing scatter and hamper performance.

If you've already set $$$ aside for it, one of Glenn's 010's or 019's might be nice. Then there is always crank fire. How happy are you with your performance and how much $$$ do you want to spend experimenting?


You can get the magnaspark 2 ready to run kit.....distributor, wires, coil, coil mount.....for a couple hundred dollars less than a Glen Ring 010 or 019. And have a smoother running engine with no timing scatter which is inherently built in to those other distributors due to their small cap....and the cap moves no matter how tight you get the clips.



On a few occasions I have picked up timing scatter when running a freshly restored distributor on my Sun machine. The issue is resolved each time by changing the points out, as the points spring malfunctioned at high rpm. This was an easy fix. I've never had a cap cause timing scatter. The only point of contact is the rotor and carbon brush inthe cap. The Sun machine does not lie.

Service the 009 you will be OK.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

I am a bit curious about something. There is a lot of talk about distributors and of course things like vac advance, steadiness of spark, reliability of systems, etc, etc are all important. No question that a reliably functioning unit, whatever it is, is critical. Ditto on the vac advance, for mileage and driveability. I understand the advantages of the black box units too.

My question is this. I have seen time after time after time threads like this where someone will be looking at changing the dissy out for one with a better curve. All good, but why do people not simply modify the existing one for the desired advance curve? Unless there is something wrong with the distributor itself, most distributors can deliver a spark at the desired time just as well as any other.

In most automotive hobby genres ie Chevy/Dodge/Ford/AMC no one in their right mind would consider getting rid of a distributor just to change the advance curve. It is far, far simpler and cheaper to replace the springs and weights or adjust the advance stops than it is to replace the entire system. As near as I can tell, there is no reason to go with an 010 or 019, if you take an 009 and adjust the curve to suit your needs.

If you are rebuilding or at least thoroughly cleaning a distributor, it should not be any harder to replace the springs and therefore change the curve than it is to put it back together stock. I have done it myself with an original 034 unit. I got some springs from a V8 advance curve kit and replaced one of the springs in the 034. I then put it on a distributor machine and lo and behold, it now has the same basic mechanical advance curve as an 009, but with the vac advance.

Why is no one doing this, or even talking about it? Maybe some of you dissy gurus are doing just this and that is part of the black arts, but it sure does not seem to be talked about much.

Thanks!

Chris
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

The cool kids are ashamed of running anything other than a 010/019 Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

ccowx wrote:
...........It is far, far simpler and cheaper to replace the springs and weights or adjust the advance stops than it is to replace the entire system. As near as I can tell, there is no reason to go with an 010 or 019, if you take an 009 and adjust the curve to suit your needs.

Chris


In VW's world, there is only one correct advance. Bosch doesn't make different size weights, or different rate advance springs. Not saying you couldn't make a 009 advance exactly like a 010/019. Maybe some of the distributor rebuilders can correct me, but aside of bending the stops for the total advance, all of the spring/weight adjustments would be custom trial, and error. With those whining about $40 for a Chinese 009, no one would pay for the labor on a "recurved" 009. Maybe in 5 years when 010/019 distributors are approaching $1k, and NOS Bosch 009's are bringing $250+, but not now.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

The 0 231 170 034 mechanical advance curve is very close to that of an 009. By importing that new spring you may have changed nothing. Changing the advance on a VW Bosch distributor requires a distributor machine and typically multiple assembly disassembly cycles that require time and time costs money.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor Change Reply with quote

UK Luke 72 wrote:
The cool kids are ashamed of running anything other than a 010/019 Very Happy


I'm a distributor builder and I'm not running either one in my five VW s.
211 905 205 B mechanical advance Garbe Lahmeyer in 1957 Kombi
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113 905 205 T in 1965 Bus
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