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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
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Location: Hood River
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 Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:50 am Post subject: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down, Etc. |
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Hey all,
I hesitate to start a thread on this because there are SO many auto trans discussion out there...however I haven't been able to find one that addresses my questions, exactly. I've also dug into the Bentley, and I'm not seeing it there.
My transmissions challenges are three fold.
1. I recently started feeling a "sloppy" or "slipping" shift from 2nd to 3rd. This appears to only happen under moderate acceleration, and around 3k rpm's. Everything I have read points to the 2nd gear brake band, which can be adjusted externally. So I am going to start there before checking out the 2nd gear piston seals. This isn't really a question, just bring it up for any additional input.
2. My kick down has never really worked and I do not see kick down adjustment in the bentley. Maybe I just missed it. Any insight? My van will not downshift automatically unless the RPM's drop below 3k rpms...which is quite annoying when crossing a mountain pass. I have to manually drop it into second gear. I wonder if this will be resolved by the same solution as #3 below...
3. Shift points. I read somewhere that at full throttle the van shouldn't shift until around 5k RPM's. If this is true, my shift point is way off. My van shifts around 3.5k RPM's at full throttle. Is this adjust via the throttle body / push rod? If so, I have the instructions for that adjustment in the Bentley and can address it.
Van is 1987 running the stock 2.1 WBX (for now).
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<<Tyler>>
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danfromsyr
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Joined: March 01, 2004
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Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down Etc. |
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yes adjusting the fore/aft position of the relay lever at the transmission will 'adjust' where/when the shift points hit.. it will also effect how hard/soft the shift is and can cause slippage if not connected or done badly.
to adjust the fore/aft position you need to adjust at the throttle body & under the throttle pedal in the little black wedge/box.
the rod rigidly adjusts the lever and the peddle takes up the slack in the cable.
kickdown happens once the throttle body is at WOT and the spring in the rod allows the pedal&cable to pull the relay lever that additional 'click' forward.
it is the same function as pulling into 2nd, so no harm in that either.
take BEFORE & after pics of all 3 points for reference and as an aid to us..
in your engine conversion you WILL have to still have a throttle connection to and from the AT relay lever. my brother's 1st install bypassed this and toasted the transmission clutches with long drawn soft shifts (and added HP).
in his & Mom's AT engine swaps we added a 2nd cable from the front pedal. with a motorcycle Y-cable adapter to the pedal pivot. one cable to the T-body one to the AT lever. adjusted to suit driving habits.
edit: this thread is full of links and parts info.. so slipping it in here for a reference
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=491252
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Last edited by danfromsyr on Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down Etc. |
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| danfromsyr wrote: |
yes adjusting the fore/aft position of the relay lever at the transmission will 'adjust' where/when the shift points hit.. it will also effect how hard/soft the shift is and can cause slippage if not connected or done badly.
to adjust the fore/aft position you need to adjust at the throttle body & under the throttle pedal in the little black wedge/box.
the rod rigidly adjusts the lever and the peddle takes up the slack in the cable.
kickdown happens once the throttle body is at WOT and the spring in the rod allows the pedal&cable to pull the relay lever that additional 'click' forward.
it is the same function as pulling into 2nd, so no harm in that either.
take BEFORE & after pics of all 3 points for reference and as an aid to us..
in your engine conversion you WILL have to still have a throttle connection to and from the AT relay lever. my brother's 1st install bypassed this and toasted the transmission clutches with long drawn soft shifts (and added HP).
in his & Mom's AT engine swaps we added a 2nd cable from the front pedal. with a motorcycle Y-cable adapter to the pedal pivot. one cable to the T-body one to the AT lever. adjusted to suit driving habits. |
Interesting. So it sounds like correct adjustment of my shift point may resolve all 3 issues in one...shift point, kick down, and soft shift.
I was thinking I would start with 2nd gear brake band adjustment, and then move on to the throttle push rod adjustment / cable slack in order to get the shift point and kick down to function properly.
Good point on the swap. I'm been working on spending more time in the Bentley manual in an attempt to understand how things work before diving in. The throttle assembly is starting to make sense, but I still have some work to do.
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<<Tyler>>
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down Etc. |
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It has been a while since I really tried to fully understand one of these trannies. I think you need to get the throttle cable adjusted (shortened) so that you are actually getting a full throttle signal at the transmission. This might involve nothing more than cutting out a section of any added driver's floor mat so the pedal can move fully.
The adjustment of the rod between the tranny and throttle valve in coordination with the governor determine when part throttle shifts occur but will seem to affect full throttle shifts if the throttle cable adjustment is off or the pedal movement is restricted. This adjustment is pretty sensitive.
Neither of these adjustments will correct a slippage problem, but hopefully adjusting the 2 gear band might.
Last edited by Wildthings on Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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h00drat
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down Etc. |
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I need to get the thing on ramps again and spend some time under there to understand it better. I'm actually looking forward to my motor swap because it will be the perfect opportunity to CLEAN the transmission and engine compartment area thoroughly. SO dirty.
Unfortunately the 2nd gear brake band adjustment has to be done with the transmission sitting horizontal to the ground...so I've got to wiggle under for that. Once complete I can pop it up on the ramps and actually have a look around.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down Etc. |
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| I wouldn't sweat it not sitting on the ground, in fact just to see if the adjustment does anything at all. Loosen the locknut and turn the adjusting screw in 1/2 turn. If that seems to improve the operation you can then go through the steps in the manual to try to get it closer to spec. If it doesn't fix things no harm done as it needs to go to a shop anyway. You can always back it off 1/2 turn to where you started if you so desire. |
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h00drat
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down Etc. |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| I wouldn't sweat it not sitting on the ground, in fact just to see if the adjustment does anything at all. Loosen the locknut and turn the adjusting screw in 1/2 turn. If that seems to improve the operation you can then go through the steps in the manual to try to get it closer to spec. If it doesn't fix things no harm done as it needs to go to a shop anyway. You can always back it off 1/2 turn to where you started if you so desire. |
That's not a bad idea. The specs in the Bentley are pretty intense. Something like, 86 ft lb, the back off, then 45 ft lb, then exactly 1/2 turn out...
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<<Tyler>>
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djkeev
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h00drat
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down Etc. |
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| djkeev wrote: |
If you disconnect your throttle linkage at the throttle body DO NOT LOOSE THE CLIP THAT HOLDS THE SPRING ON!!!
They go missing easily and are not available locally. I carry spares with me "just in case".
Yes, I did learn this from experience! 
One of the adjustments is in the end of the rod where the spring is, a screw driver slot.
Dave |
I noticed that. I've taken one of those springs off and I can see how that retainer clip could easily go missing.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down Etc. |
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| h00drat wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| I wouldn't sweat it not sitting on the ground, in fact just to see if the adjustment does anything at all. Loosen the locknut and turn the adjusting screw in 1/2 turn. If that seems to improve the operation you can then go through the steps in the manual to try to get it closer to spec. If it doesn't fix things no harm done as it needs to go to a shop anyway. You can always back it off 1/2 turn to where you started if you so desire. |
That's not a bad idea. The specs in the Bentley are pretty intense. Something like, 86 ft lb, the back off, then 45 ft lb, then exactly 1/2 turn out... |
The torque specs are given in inch*pounds IIRC and I believe you back it off something like 2.5 turns, but don't have my Bentley with me to check verify it.  |
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kourt
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down Etc. |
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That's right--the torque specs for the 2nd gear brake band are in inch pounds, not foot pounds:
1. tighten to 87 in. lb
2. loosen and retighten to 43 in. lb
3. loosen 2.5 turns and then tighten locknut
(see Bentley 38.12)
Adjusting the 2nd gear brake band is easy.
kourt |
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h00drat
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IdahoDoug
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down Etc. |
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I have a spare of that clip as I ordered an extra after taking one off. Use needle nose pliers and a helper. Dont bend the rod in all the tumult. One day when entering your subdivision it will stick at full throttle and make you scream like a little girl. Luckily I was alone. You may not be as fortunate...
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ALIKA T3
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down Etc. |
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When I did my automatic transmission, I adjusted not the the kickdown per the Bentley instructions bc it didn't work very well the first time but rather from the end of the solution: I put the accelerator pedal to the floor and blocked it in that position, put the lever at max kickdown at the transmission and adjusted the cable at the accelerator pedal. Throttle body rod completely loose (no spring).
Then I adjusted the rod for the throttle body with the accelerator pedal in normal position (at rest).
When I did it the other way around like on the Bentley I would not get a kickdown unless I was stepping on the accelerator pedal lifting myself from the seat, pulling on the steering wheel, like I wanted to go through the floor literally 
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h00drat
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down, Etc. |
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Well the “quick” adjustments of the brake band didn’t do much. Admittedly I wasn’t able to torque it to spec because I could not gain access with the torque wrench due to the coolant tubes being in the way.
By feel, I was able to tighten the adjusting screw and it did make a difference...but no “crisp” shift. In addition, everything was really warm from a 120 mile drive. After a drive like that, it always has slipped more.
Oddly, throttle level still makes a difference. At full throttle, no slipping. But it’s possible the trans skips 2nd at full throttle, I think.
Anyway, more adjusting to be had. Otherwise the piston seals may be up.
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<<Tyler>>
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nepawesty
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down, Etc. |
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| To achieve kickdown I think you'll need to adjust the cable at the pedal. |
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h00drat
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down, Etc. |
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I think I'm getting close on that brake band. My final half turn on the first night was, I think, too much. Next morning it didn't really want to leave 2nd gear.
Adjusted 1/2 or 1 turn out and it feels close.
As far as kick down and shift point goes...
I have a spare throttle cable. Mine has always been a little sticky, so I may throw the spare on and use that as an opportunity to adjust. If I don't get kick down before the engine swap I'm not going to sweat it as I will have to re-do all of this at that time anyway.
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<<Tyler>>
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down, Etc. |
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2nd gear apply piston would work only 2nd gear on the upshift and the down shift. Assuming you have the transmission relay lever adjusted properly, it sounds like you have a tired internal clutch pack.
A former member used to recommend Ford Type F transmission fluid to help sharpen the shifts.
When you adjust the 2nd gear brake band, you are actually setting a stop. Too tight and the band will drag on the drum.
If you look in the Bentley manual 37.17 through 37.19 it tells you how to attach a pressure gauge and how to troubleshoot internal problems based on the pressure. There is also a table with what sections are applied when.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down, Etc. |
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| 43 inch*lbs isn't very much, a moderate twist of the wrist using a 4" long 1/4 drive ratchet, about what you might tighten a #12 machine screw to. The 2 1/2 turns backwards just keeps the band from dragging. |
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h00drat
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic Transmission - Shifting Point, Kick Down, Etc. |
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Wow. I can't believe it took me this long...but I finally adjusted the throttle cable under the pedal. It was quite loose. I wish I had done this about a year ago. Feels like driving a different van. I was probably missing out on at least 10% of my throttle range.
I'm sure I wasn't reaching full throttle on the TPS, which may explain my horrible gas mileage (no fuel leaning), and driving at my false full throttle a lot more than I probably needed to had the cable been adjusted.
This has, based on my limited testing, resolved the early shift problem. At full throttle the van wants to keep revving. How far? TBD.
I'm still unsure on kick-down. More testing to come.
2nd - 3rd slipping is minimal based on my most recent brake band adjustment and the cable adjustment. I realize the cable may be unrelated except that it is giving me different shift points, and the slipping really only occurs right at or around 3k rpm's. I may go a 1/4 turn in on the brake band and see what happens.
I will probably wait until the motor swap to throw the new throttle cable on. This may give me even more room for adjustment as I went from tons of slack, to a little slack on the throttle cable, but I adjusted it as far as it would go with the locking screw still sitting on the rod on the end of the cable.
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<<Tyler>>
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