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kyle4nia
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2017
Posts: 2
Location: WNC
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 Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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I just acquired a 73 squareback (auto trans) that was partially converted from EFI to dual empi carbs. I would have kept the EFI but alas what is done is done. So I've been doing a lot of reading and I think I have a quasi-partially-so so understanding of the scope of the project before me. But I know some of y'all have da knowledge...
The current scene: The EFI is gone and the carbs are installed. Last owner couldn't get it to run at all but as I went through the initial inspection/adjustment phase I came across some points in desperate need of filing and viola!, she fired up. After a short victory lap consisting of a short drive, I parked the beast and started to gain knowledge... so here I am.
Here's my list of "to-do's" before I fire it up again:
-Install 2 fire extinguishers, one in the cockpit and one near the engine compartment.
-Install low output fuel pump somewhere closer to the tank, accessible, and not in the engine compartment.
-tap both manifolds to run vacuum line to auto trans.
-Make engine compartment less of a tinder-box by installing braided fuel lines, inspecting/replacing wiring as needed, and anything else for safeties sake.
-Creating a sealable engine compartment because the carbs and synch arm prevent the normal engine hatch from working.
-Installing centrifugal distributor
-**anything else that those of us who pull these things from the weeds do to them to make them fun ction. * not a type-o
I am going to put a main battery cut-off switch and a fuel pump cut off switch somewhere convenient as well.
So my question is...
What would YOU add to this list?
I have rescued and restored 4 air-cooled vws and an 82 vanagon diesel thus far.
This is my first time with efi->carb conversion and the auto trans. |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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Here's my .02:
A Blaze Cut will be much faster than a fire extinguisher. If you catch it before the magnesium case ignites, you're in luck - if you don't, the car typically burns to the ground no matter how many fire extinguishers you have.
Non-FI Type 3 engines had mechanical fuel pumps - they're simple and they work. If you're concerned about 'fire risk', make sure all of the fuel line is both ethanol rated and new (replace all of the clamps as well). It doesn't need to be 'braided' - it needs to be properly rated. Gates Barricade is, in my experience, a good choice. If you want to stick with metric fuel line - you can order German made ethanol rated fuel line from Belmetric.com, among others.
If you simply prefer the electric pump AND you're concerned about mitigating fire risk - install an automatic safety relay for the fuel pump. If the original FI pump mount is still on the car - you can often use it to mount the new/replacement electric fuel pump.
Do not place fuel filters in the engine bay - they're typically mounted in line between the pan and the 'front' engine tin before the engine bay or at the front of the car under the tank.
The engine compartment does not 'seal' on a Type 3 like it does on a bug or bus - nor does it need to due to the difference in cooling layout for the engine. Having an engine lid seal that works - along with the rear hatch seals (both of them) is your best defense against smell/sound. If your carburetor linkage is fouling the lid - fix the linkage vs. modifying the engine lid. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
Here's my .02:
A Blaze Cut will be much faster than a fire extinguisher. If you catch it before the magnesium case ignites, you're in luck - if you don't, the car typically burns to the ground no matter how many fire extinguishers you have.
Non-FI Type 3 engines had mechanical fuel pumps - they're simple and they work. If you're concerned about 'fire risk', make sure all of the fuel line is both ethanol rated and new (replace all of the clamps as well). It doesn't need to be 'braided' - it needs to be properly rated. Gates Barricade is, in my experience, a good choice. If you want to stick with metric fuel line - you can order German made ethanol rated fuel line from Belmetric.com, among others.
If you simply prefer the electric pump AND you're concerned about mitigating fire risk - install an automatic safety relay for the fuel pump. If the original FI pump mount is still on the car - you can often use it to mount the new/replacement electric fuel pump.
Do not place fuel filters in the engine bay - they're typically mounted in line between the pan and the 'front' engine tin before the engine bay or at the front of the car under the tank.
The engine compartment does not 'seal' on a Type 3 like it does on a bug or bus - nor does it need to due to the difference in cooling layout for the engine. Having an engine lid seal that works - along with the rear hatch seals (both of them) is your best defense against smell/sound. If your carburetor linkage is fouling the lid - fix the linkage vs. modifying the engine lid. |
I agree 100% with the above.
I wouldn't use the centrifugal advance distributor. No need to. The stock type 3 distributor has a much better advance curve than the 009 will ever have, even with the vac hose off it. 
Post up a current pic of your engine bay, and maybe we can give you some ideas on why the linkage is fouling with the lid. Sometimes it might be something simple like trimming the adjustable links down a little bit (taking off 6 or 7mm off each end of the rod). BTDT before.
If the manifolds aren't tapped yet, then do so. It'll help the engine idle better, and allow you to put a "T" into the balance tube line for the AT modulator. Also make sure the PO installed the thick paper gaskets between the heads and the manifolds. DON'T use the metal ones found in the bug gasket kits...they are a vacuum leak on a type 3.
I'd also check out the FAQ in the sticky section for reviving/bringing a type 3 back from a long hibernation/dead/parked somewhere for a long time. There's some great info in there. 
Edit; I thought it was in the FAQ section, but it's not. Here's a direct link to that thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=520360
OOPs that's not it either.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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GjMan
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2004
Posts: 822
Location: Grand Junction, CO
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GjMan
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2004
Posts: 822
Location: Grand Junction, CO
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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| Oops, bad link. Look for Holley part #12-810 |
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swivel'n
Samba Member
Joined: February 04, 2005
Posts: 275
Location: Tracy, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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Are we talking the FI thick ones? OR just regular paper gaskets?
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
Here's my .02:
A Blaze Cut will be much faster than a fire extinguisher. If you catch it before the magnesium case ignites, you're in luck - if you don't, the car typically burns to the ground no matter how many fire extinguishers you have.
Non-FI Type 3 engines had mechanical fuel pumps - they're simple and they work. If you're concerned about 'fire risk', make sure all of the fuel line is both ethanol rated and new (replace all of the clamps as well). It doesn't need to be 'braided' - it needs to be properly rated. Gates Barricade is, in my experience, a good choice. If you want to stick with metric fuel line - you can order German made ethanol rated fuel line from Belmetric.com, among others.
If you simply prefer the electric pump AND you're concerned about mitigating fire risk - install an automatic safety relay for the fuel pump. If the original FI pump mount is still on the car - you can often use it to mount the new/replacement electric fuel pump.
Do not place fuel filters in the engine bay - they're typically mounted in line between the pan and the 'front' engine tin before the engine bay or at the front of the car under the tank.
The engine compartment does not 'seal' on a Type 3 like it does on a bug or bus - nor does it need to due to the difference in cooling layout for the engine. Having an engine lid seal that works - along with the rear hatch seals (both of them) is your best defense against smell/sound. If your carburetor linkage is fouling the lid - fix the linkage vs. modifying the engine lid. |
I agree 100% with the above.
I wouldn't use the centrifugal advance distributor. No need to. The stock type 3 distributor has a much better advance curve than the 009 will ever have, even with the vac hose off it.
Post up a current pic of your engine bay, and maybe we can give you some ideas on why the linkage is fouling with the lid. Sometimes it might be something simple like trimming the adjustable links down a little bit (taking off 6 or 7mm off each end of the rod). BTDT before.
If the manifolds aren't tapped yet, then do so. It'll help the engine idle better, and allow you to put a "T" into the balance tube line for the AT modulator. Also make sure the PO installed the thick paper gaskets between the heads and the manifolds. DON'T use the metal ones found in the bug gasket kits...they are a vacuum leak on a type 3.
I'd also check out the FAQ in the sticky section for reviving/bringing a type 3 back from a long hibernation/dead/parked somewhere for a long time. There's some great info in there.
Edit; I thought it was in the FAQ section, but it's not. Here's a direct link to that thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=520360
OOPs that's not it either. |
_________________
1969 og paint Squareback
1968 automatic sunroof notchback
1959 Swivel seat kombi
Last edited by swivel'n on Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GjMan
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2004
Posts: 822
Location: Grand Junction, CO
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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| Where to find paper manifold gaskets? Most suppliers sell them; believe my last batch came from Cip1. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:15 am Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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| swivel'n wrote: |
Are we talking the FI thick ones? OR just regular paper gaskets?
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
Here's my .02:
A Blaze Cut will be much faster than a fire extinguisher. If you catch it before the magnesium case ignites, you're in luck - if you don't, the car typically burns to the ground no matter how many fire extinguishers you have.
Non-FI Type 3 engines had mechanical fuel pumps - they're simple and they work. If you're concerned about 'fire risk', make sure all of the fuel line is both ethanol rated and new (replace all of the clamps as well). It doesn't need to be 'braided' - it needs to be properly rated. Gates Barricade is, in my experience, a good choice. If you want to stick with metric fuel line - you can order German made ethanol rated fuel line from Belmetric.com, among others.
If you simply prefer the electric pump AND you're concerned about mitigating fire risk - install an automatic safety relay for the fuel pump. If the original FI pump mount is still on the car - you can often use it to mount the new/replacement electric fuel pump.
Do not place fuel filters in the engine bay - they're typically mounted in line between the pan and the 'front' engine tin before the engine bay or at the front of the car under the tank.
The engine compartment does not 'seal' on a Type 3 like it does on a bug or bus - nor does it need to due to the difference in cooling layout for the engine. Having an engine lid seal that works - along with the rear hatch seals (both of them) is your best defense against smell/sound. If your carburetor linkage is fouling the lid - fix the linkage vs. modifying the engine lid. |
I agree 100% with the above.
I wouldn't use the centrifugal advance distributor. No need to. The stock type 3 distributor has a much better advance curve than the 009 will ever have, even with the vac hose off it.
Post up a current pic of your engine bay, and maybe we can give you some ideas on why the linkage is fouling with the lid. Sometimes it might be something simple like trimming the adjustable links down a little bit (taking off 6 or 7mm off each end of the rod). BTDT before.
If the manifolds aren't tapped yet, then do so. It'll help the engine idle better, and allow you to put a "T" into the balance tube line for the AT modulator. Also make sure the PO installed the thick paper gaskets between the heads and the manifolds. DON'T use the metal ones found in the bug gasket kits...they are a vacuum leak on a type 3.
I'd also check out the FAQ in the sticky section for reviving/bringing a type 3 back from a long hibernation/dead/parked somewhere for a long time. There's some great info in there.
Edit; I thought it was in the FAQ section, but it's not. Here's a direct link to that thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=520360
OOPs that's not it either. |
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Just the thick paper gaskets that you can get from places like CB Performance.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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kyle4nia
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2017
Posts: 2
Location: WNC
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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Thanks y'all. I appreciate the advice.
Here are the pics showing the carbs sticking up past the engine lid. I guess I'll just cut down the main brackets and the connecting arms as well as getting different air cleaners. Thanks ataraxia and Bobnotch, I wasn't even considering that option. I love it.
...and Bobnotch, the current distributor has what looks like a vacuum advance but there is no nipple for a vacuum line. Just a hole with crud in it. Tried to scrape said crud out and it sorta felt pointless... So I ordered the 009 which has already shipped. Are you saying that I should keep the original distributor even without functional vacuum advance? Or should I invest in replacing or repairing the current one? My instinct says to put the 009 in and get the machine operational and tuned confidently knowing I have a properly functioning distributor. Then revisit the issue at a later time.
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17968
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:28 am Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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I hate to tell you that the previous owner hacked out your engine compartment where the lid fits securely to keep exhaust/carbon monoxide out of the driver's compartment. You can buy the missing section and weld it in so the stock engine lid will fit in again as original. It hurts that it wasn't necessary to cut it out to fit dual carburetors on the car if he had bought different air cleaners & linkage! I think your carburetor setup is for a Beetle.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5363
Location: Lefty, CA
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GjMan
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2004
Posts: 822
Location: Grand Junction, CO
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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| Post the number on your stock T3 distributor, and we can tell you how much mechanical advance it has. You may be surprised. |
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Rex lucy
Samba Member
Joined: April 10, 2008
Posts: 497
Location: pleasant plains arkansas
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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here is how I filled the rusty cutout and sealing the engine
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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| Multi69s wrote: |
| Your biggest problem is that the carb linkage is crap. It was never designed to fit a type 3. It so flimsy and poorly made, you will never get the carbs to open and close at a constant rate in relation to each other. Ditch the cross bar, get a good push pull linkage and t the balance tubes together then connect to your AT. |
I have to agree Multi, in that the carb set up you have is for a bug, bus, or ghia. in that everything is too tall. I'd probably see about getting some air cleaner bases (or air cleaner units) and some short linkages from CB Performance, so I could get everything below the floor height. Maybe even 1 of their cross bar links with ends. Definitely pull the manifolds and drill and tap them (1/4 inch pipe is good and common), as the manifolds "should" have a flat on both sides of them to give you a place to drill (manifolds are the same, just depends on where you put the balance tube fitting). I'd look on their web site, and even in the Samba classifieds and see if I could find the parts and pieces.
I know I'll get flamed here, but it's little things like that, that I prefer to buy the CB ICT kit, versus trying to save a few bucks. The CB kit comes with the manifolds already drilled and tapped (both sides, so you can make them handed), a nice solid air cleaner base for the hex bar to attach to, correct parts for the linkage (to get a better/less wear angle on the down links), low profile washable filter elements, better end links for the hex bar, and properly jetted carbs (mine got within 1 mpg of my Solex carbs). Not to mention a length of hose for the balance tubes, fittings and clamps for the balance tube, new hose, clamps, and a "T" for the carbs. It's truly a bolt on and go set up, that even includes installation instructions, and a carb trouble shooting help page. On my spare engine, I set them up out of the box, and didn't touch them again. I actually pulled them off that engine, and put them on another engine so I could transport that car to my home. The only thing I did was bump the idle up a hair when I "changed the engine under the carbs". Nothing else was changed on them. Here's a pic of them in my old 71 Notch.
I'll give you some advice right now not related to the carbs though. You really should look for a 1 cap breather box, and either plug the end holes on the big dirty aluminum fan shroud, or put some flexible hoses on them to the heater boxes. You're loosing a lot of cooling air with them open like they are. The breather box deal is more of a case of oil WILL try to go past the big cooling fan, due to that style of box, as it has a PCV valve built into it that needs a stronger vac signal than carbs can provide.
I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Cliff@BrownBags
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2007
Posts: 649
Location: glen burnie maryland
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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great info, bobnotch. I appreciate that feedback. I am on here now looking at new dual carb ideas, and was unsure on the empi or webbers, if any at all. Your feedback is great. I have some solex carbs and I have done nothing but fight them and the horrible linkage. It may be time to throw in the towel.
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its not about what you say you will do oneday, its what you do today that actualy means something. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:13 am Post subject: Re: EFI to Carbs conversion checklist... |
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| Cliff@BrownBags wrote: |
| great info, bobnotch. I appreciate that feedback. I am on here now looking at new dual carb ideas, and was unsure on the empi or webbers, if any at all. Your feedback is great. I have some solex carbs and I have done nothing but fight them and the horrible linkage. It may be time to throw in the towel. |
No problem. I don't work for CB Performance, but I do like their ICT kit. For the extra 100 bucks, you get quality parts and engineering.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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