| Author |
Message |
deathman68
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 339
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:53 am Post subject: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
 |
|
Hi all,
Apologies in advance for the bad pun in the post title...my bus's name is Annie. I've seen some great posts through the years documenting the various water-cooled conversions, so I thought I'd join the list to help other members in their bus journey.
Goals for the Thread:
1. Document steps to convert my '73 Rivi from the tired 1.7 to a Subaru EJ25
2. Share REAL costs of the conversion
(Live cost/part tracking highlighted in green):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gGlFtncq5BJ2bFhCfr0p5MsLtz3FBbL1JX6GsxtDqf8/edit?usp=sharing
Rules for the Thread:
1. No such thing as a stupid question. I'm happy to help answer any (reasonable) questions fellow Sambaites might have
2. I won't engage in flaming/hate comments. It's my bus and I'm building it the way I want.
Some Brief Background:
This is my second bus. The first was a '76 Rivi that I converted to an 80's Toyota 3TC watercooled engine. I had my fair share of trials and tribulations trying to sort out cooling (ie. engine comp rads vs. belly mount etc etc), but ultimately overcame obstacles to build a reliable water-cooled bus that could be driven anywhere. Fortunately, info is now more than abundantly available to perhaps even render this post obsolete before I even get started.
My Build Mantra
1. The conversion should be reversible by an apt mechanic. I will minimize body cuts/hacks and perform any required surgeries with reversal in mind.
2. I'm no longer a fresh-out-of-college kid with my first job. I have a family (who loves buses) and a mortgage. While I still have the same spirited approach I took with my first conversion (when I cut/welded/fabbed all the mounts, cooling lines, etc etc), I now have *some* disposable income and very little free time. So if the part is readily available and priced fairly, I'm not opposed to buying it vs. fabricating it. I will openly share all incurred expenses to help those who are considering a similar build.
3. I'm in no rush. I cut a lot of corners with the last build just to get it cobbled together. This build is intended to be a two year project with the desired end result to appear factory.
4. If it can come apart, I will take it apart and rebuild it (barring some limited exceptions).
So without further ado, meet Annie and my 2003 Subaru Impreza Outback which I acquired a few months back for $1600 with 136K, 180 psi on all four, and a sloppy five speed transmission which will be used in the conversion.
_________________
1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
congrats on taking the plunge. looking at your parts list you will be sorely disappointed in your choice of water pump and thermostat, and what timing belt kit did you buy?
I have looked at all of them, and decided OEM from Subaru is the best bet. I was using gates for a while, then conti...but both ended up junk so back to the dealer. in fact, I "recalled" 3 timing belt jobs I did for normal Subaru clients and swapped out those kits for Subaru ones. sad...but it is what it is.
don't worry about the hate mail....I have been the punching bag for that shit over the years and it seems to have died off seeing these conversions are more mainstream these days
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Manfred58sc
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2009
Posts: 3382
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
As much as I dislike Subaru's this is probably the best way to go . Please,please upgrade your brakes as well so that your first ride is not your last ride.
_________________
Fat chick owner/operator |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deathman68
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 339
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:48 am Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I have been the punching bag for that shit over the years |
You're an inspiration Skills! Glad to hear it's dying down some
| Quote: |
| what timing belt kit did you buy? |
I haven't pulled the trigger yet given the very concerns you're mentioning. The Six Star head gaskets are a no brainer, but the timing belt is a different story. My understanding is that it's a hodgepodge of parts, some from reputable companies/manufacturing locations and others not so much. OEM is prob the best way to go.
| Quote: |
| please upgrade your brakes as well |
The brakes have been COMPLETELY gone through and replaced with all OEM/German parts where available. Don't even get me started on the reman calipers that were supposedly "good as OEM". Took me a while to figure out that one half of one caliper was over-machined by more than 2mm which preventing the caliper/pads from slipping over the disc. In the end, I used german seals and carefully rebuilt the old ones.
So..... let's get this kicked off properly.
Total Investment to Date (just for the swap): $2029
After spending the better part of the last year removing, rebuilding, powdercoating/painting EVERY part of the bus, I'm ready to start tackling the smaller projects to prepare for the Subie swap.
First Up: Add a return line to the gas tank (and clean and seal the tank).
Step 1: Disconnect two wires from sender, remove fuel vapor lines (and replace with new ones), and remove (and also replace) rubber fuel filler elbow
Step 2: Remove tank and then vacuum out 47 years of crud.
Step 3: Test fit the fuel return. I searched high and low and considered several options based on posts from other forum members. I didn't like the idea of t-ing the return line into the filler hose because it provides an opportunity for aeration of the fuel in the tank, so I opted for an in-tank pickup.
While there are several materials/hoses rated for total fuel immersion, few have data that goes out more than a few months. I don't know about you, but I HATE getting covered in gas and hate even more having to pull the engine to get at the tank (if not cutting an access hatch for the sender etc), so I opted for a PFTE hose that measures approx. 10". This allows me to install the return just forward of the sender unit which means I can get my hand/fingers in the sender hole to cinch up the nut and affix the PFTE hose with a proper non-gouging clamp for backup. At the same time, the length of hose ensures that I can slope it away from the main line at the bottom of the tank.
I went ahead and made the requisite 9/16" hole in the tank. Normally I would have loaded up my bit with grease to prevent metal shavings from falling into the tank, but since I'm cleaning, etching, and coating it, I didn't really care.
Next up: Clean and seal tank, replace/calibrate fuel sender, and then finalize return line install. I also got impatient and started mocking up the rads to figure out where I will make the cuts on the driver's side engine tin lip.
_________________
1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
I see a brake upgrade as a waste of $$. the bus has no idea how it got to 75 mph. a good stock brake system is fine. if you were doing autocross or any racing sure...but it's not a bug/ghia/T3 that you're going to slam thru the twisty's
the only upgrade I would do is move from drum to disk's like the 71 up buses have. I did that to my 70...it has brakes from a 78 on it
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15143
Location: Syracuse, NY
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
cool I'll subscribe to the thread..
and ask a stupid question since there aren't any.
how does one fill the coolant system when the radiator cap is on it's side?
then there's the battery access question but I suppose that's a once in every 5-7year issue anyways.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deathman68
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 339
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
The caps on the rads are a higher psi than the the one on the overflow tank which will be mounted at the highest point in the system to avoid getting air trapped in the system. I’ll mount the overflow tank where it can be accessed from the hatch or use a remote fill location (spare tire well is how I did it previously)
As to the batts, I’m thinking of mounting the main batt on its side (sealed batt) to somewhere under the belly and then sticking the house batts under the rear seat. I will iterate as I go to see how best to maximize space.
_________________
1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
oh boy
in bay radiators 
knowing what I know now I think I can make it work. but typically...they don't. what is your target coolant temp?
I have been down this road. didn't end well
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deathman68
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 339
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
oh boy
in bay radiators
knowing what I know now I think I can make it work. but typically...they don't. what is your target coolant temp?
I have been down this road. didn't end well |
Yeah I ran into some roadblocks with this in the last conversion and ultimately decided to go belly mount with a big ass Ford Explorer radiator in between the frame rails. That said, I like to run off-road on occasion and am loathe to have my Achilles heal sitting in the most vulnerable of locations.
Given my current cooling plans, I *think* I can pull off bay mounted rads in the 210-220F temp range. I’m not going to cheap out on fans (12” SPAL Hipos with upgraded alternator to keep up with amperage demands) in order to move a good amount of CFM and also shroud/block off the rads to force air through them. I figure it’s 50/50 and can always go belly mount if needed. Of course I guess I could always go with a variable speed thermostatically controlled water pump like the fancy bmws and Porsches but in the end I do want this to be a reasonably priced build.
_________________
1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
problem is, 220* is too hot for this generation Subaru. for a short period...ok but not sustained.
trust me, I did a LOT of futzing with this. at 210-213 Subaru fires both fans and kicks out the a/c compressor.
some claim it works, but it's on the ragged edge imho. I understand the off road thing.
I can honestly say that I can cruise at 80 with a/c on and not break 205* in 92* weather
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vee Dub Nut
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Dallas, GA
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
Welcome to the Subaru club. Come on in, the water is fine 
Glad to see another swapped Bus. IMO, this is the way for late bays with all that room in the engine bay. It was a night and day difference with our Bus. Completely transformed it.
My conversion thread is in my signature. Feel free to ask questions. I'll be following along here. My thread has been dormant for a while now. Literally have done nothing but putting gas in it and driving it. Its been that good. To bad all the fun shows and events this year were canceled.
Now starting a journey (slowly) on a Subaru swapped Squareback. Should be fun.
_________________
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006
67 Beetle (TBD)
74 Transporter (EJ25 Swapped) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deathman68
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 339
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
| Vee Dub Nut wrote: |
Welcome to the Subaru club. Come on in, the water is fine
Glad to see another swapped Bus. IMO, this is the way for late bays with all that room in the engine bay. It was a night and day difference with our Bus. Completely transformed it.
My conversion thread is in my signature. Feel free to ask questions. I'll be following along here. My thread has been dormant for a while now. Literally have done nothing but putting gas in it and driving it. Its been that good. To bad all the fun shows and events this year were canceled.
Now starting a journey (slowly) on a Subaru swapped Squareback. Should be fun. |
Thanks for the welcome and rec. I've read your posts extensively throughout internet land. Good stuff, great pics for reference, and a must read for all considering the conversion. I'm sure I'll be reaching out at some point to compare notes. Now Skills has motivated me to shoot for 205F on a 92F day. Fortunately, there are plenty of those and more down here in Miami. Might also be adding pontoons in the near future now that we're in hurricane season and I have no garage to speak of. 
From what I hear, the Squarebacks give you some more options for rad placement, but as you well know it's never easy. Good luck with the swap!
_________________
1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vee Dub Nut
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Dallas, GA
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
| deathman68 wrote: |
Thanks for the welcome and rec. I've read your posts extensively throughout internet land. Good stuff, great pics for reference, and a must read for all considering the conversion. I'm sure I'll be reaching out at some point to compare notes. Now Skills has motivated me to shoot for 205F on a 92F day. Fortunately, there are plenty of those and more down here in Miami. Might also be adding pontoons in the near future now that we're in hurricane season and I have no garage to speak of.
From what I hear, the Squarebacks give you some more options for rad placement, but as you well know it's never easy. Good luck with the swap! |
Thanks for the kind words. Glad that my thread is at least somewhat helpful. I tried to document things along the way to give a good idea of what all is involved. Certainly not the end all be all, but hopefully a good source of at least one way to go about the swap.
I'll be interested in seeing your progress with the in-bay radiator setup. I wish you the best. I considered trying it too, but basically all information I found suggested that it has some limited capabilities. The ones that do work tend to heavily rely on fans. For me personally, I wanted something more robust. But obviously I don't off road my Bus either.
Feel free to reach out and compare notes on cooling once you get there. My system has been working well, and I have zero issues with temp control regardless of weather condition. My radiator is probably a little larger than it needs to be to be honest. But when the first setup I had didn't quite do what I wanted it to, I sort of shot for the moon on the second setup. What Skills shared is a good target to shoot for temp wise.
The Square should be a fun swap I think. It will actually have a radiator up front like a "normal" watercooled vehicle. A little easier to arrange that in a T3, and body mods required below the bumper to add ventilation for cooling are pretty subtle. What I'm most curious about, is if I could manage to squeeze the EZ30 6 cylinder in. Research continues. 
_________________
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006
67 Beetle (TBD)
74 Transporter (EJ25 Swapped) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
panel
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2001
Posts: 1090
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
What radiators are you using and are you going with the Subi-gears kit ?
_________________
My '65-Subaru EJ20 Turbo conversion |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deathman68
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 339
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
| panel wrote: |
| What radiators are you using and are you going with the Subi-gears kit ? |
The rad info is in the Google Sheets link at the top of the post. Scirocco rad for the drivers side and Honda Civic rad for the pass side.
I’ll be going with the Subarugears (info in Google Sheets as well) kit so I can reuse the five speed trans from my Subie. Wanted to go six speed, but the Subarugears guys advised against it given the level of hacking required to shoehorn it in. Maybe for version 2.0 down the road including AWD
_________________
1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
wait till you see the level of hacking to fit the 5 speed.
I try and steer folks away. the time it takes to set it up is staggering plus the master cylinder can be a pain. I have done a few now and meh, juice isn't worth the squeeze in my eyes.
plus I have yet to see a Subaru 5 speed not puke gear oil yet, and there were built by "pros"
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hometurbine
Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2014
Posts: 157
Location: Cincinnati
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
Following with interest. I love the idea of the live spreasheet with P/N, links to vendors, costs,etc and comments as you learn.
My bus is almost complete now (with 2L engine). I should probably update my Avatar. My next project is the Subaru conversion. I did a lot of research on the different configurations (mostly from Skills' posts).
My understanding is the under-belly radiator is the best option. From my point of view I was planning on using the VW transmission. At this point all I have is an engine and original wire harness but only have a skeleton plan. Maybe we can add a separate tab for VW transmisson configuration or under-belly fan configuration.
I have my spreasheet I can share, though I haven't updated it in a while.
Bill
_________________
Bill
'75 Westy Bus with Subaru EJ25 engine
GE CT58-100 helicopter gas turbine
Tiernay TT10 APU gas turbine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fokker100
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2006
Posts: 149
Location: North of the border
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
You took a wonderful decision to upgrade your camper.
Same situation as you, income, mortgage, not a lot of time at the moment I decided to do the conversion, and I chose one of the worst company to do it unfortunately, until my path crossed Skills and the future looks bright again 😁
Good luck, it will be a great experience anyway, the reliable power at the end will be the reward, and crossing the entire country without worrying about a mechanical issue would become a reality 🤟
I will definitely enjoy reading your thread, and welcome to the “japswagen” community! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ivwshane
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 1920
Location: Sacramento ca
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
I love the documentation you’ve got going on!! I’ll be watching and hopefully it will give me inspiration to tackle this job myself.
I originally bought a Subaru to put in my ghia but I really want to go electric on it. However, I really do enjoy my forester and I’m now looking to buy another one that is in better shape (body wise) so I’ll have my current forester to pull the engine out of and all the needed wiring. That last part is what I haven’t really seen documented well and I hope your thread will address that.
Good luck!
_________________
77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deathman68
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 339
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Annie-other Subaru Swap - Build Thread |
|
|
I've been following your saga Fokker. Glad Skills is around to set things straight.
@Bill, feel free to shoot me a PM and we can swap notes on the spreadsheet. I may still have some info from back in '05 when I did the belly mount on my '76.
@ivwshane, I will def be documenting this conversion in excruciating detail. My biggest hope at this point is that the mother of all hurricanes doesn't show up at my front door in the meantime. I still probably have a year ahead of me of slow-going, but rewarding progress on this. I get what you mean about the Subie. My wife drives a '15 outback and I bought the '03 for the swap. I was halfway tempted to register it and just drive it as is, but sacrifices must be made (and I didn't feel like paying the taxes/tags on it)!
_________________
1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
