Comment/opinion on these brake components

[tomfreo]

I need to replace the front brake calipers on my '77 bus. I'm thinking of these, "impossible to find" TRW new calipers.

http://www.busdepot.com/211615108

Before I go ahead and order them, can anyone say this is my best choice? Cheers!
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'77 Kombi 2L dual carbs
'61 Bug 6V 1600sp

[SGKent]

I usually rebuild my calipers but here in California we have a dry climate compared to a lot of places where they get snow and use salt.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[tomfreo]

I did consider rebuilding the calipers but where I live the cost (of rebuild kits, postage, etc) would've been half of buying new calipers. Plus I don't have easy access to an air compressor to get the pistons out.

However, if someone were to say the TRW calipers I'm considering (see link) were "crap" (or greatly inferior to a rebuilt pair of original calipers) I might start to reconsider my options.
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'77 Kombi 2L dual carbs
'61 Bug 6V 1600sp

[Terminatez]

Hmm. I would say rebuild yours. Even if it's half the cost, or actually the same cost... they're the original parts.. I'm sure many could agree that they'll last longer?

Not too related to what you're asking, but here's a teardown of both a VW and TRW steering box. Shows the differences... you make the decision on quality
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1972 Westfalia P30 hardtop Campmobile [On-going Restoration]

[aeromech]

Many times I’ve read posts from guys who bought new calipers and had trouble installing them. Mostly because of differences in the bolts. If I were you I’d try and buy the rebuild kit for about $40 and either do it myself or have a brake shop do them. Like was said, the cost might be similar but you’d have your correct parts.

Edit: good rule to live by is never turn in your core parts until you have the new parts installed.
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[airschooled]

I know shipping might be tough, but does Rock Auto (rockauto.com) ship to you? They have excellent brands of brake parts for not very much money. Rebuild kits are pennies on the dollar there compared to local auto parts shops here in the Con-US.

Good luck!
Robbie
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Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
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[tomfreo]

Thanks for all the input. I'm now starting to think again about rebuilding.

I looked at Rockauto and found several rebuild kits, one of which (Centric) - with shipping - is quite cheap!

http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=2045998

Although the info doesn't state exactly what's in the kit, the photo appears to include the two small internal seals. I've not seen that before.

Is Centric a quality product? I'm thinking if I were to go with these guys I'd get two front hoses as well, also by Centric.

Edit: Forgot I'd need pads. Any recommendations for these? Rockauto has pads ranging in price from $10-$32, metallic and organic, brands include: Centric, Bosch, Wagner, Raybestos.
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'77 Kombi 2L dual carbs
'61 Bug 6V 1600sp

[airschooled]

Yes Centric typically makes great components, and is the OE supplier to a few big brands. The two internal seals are mandatory if you split open the caliper to clean and inspect, which is part of doing a thorough job; they seal the halves together for assembly.

I love Rock Auto for small little non-ACVW specific stuff. Rubber kits like those are used on all kinds of cars, and some VW specialty shops have kits on their shelves that are past the useful lifespan of the rubber. I won’t mess around when it comes to brakes.

Search the Type 4 forum on here for a pictorial by raygreenwood on rebuilding calipers. It’s excellent and very similar to bus calipers. (Sorry I can’t search and paste links from my phone.)

Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com

[tomfreo]

Thanks Robbie. I read raygreenwood's post on caliper rebuilds. Very comprehensive! Seems you got in a reply before I'd finished re-editing my last post.
Any thoughts on brake pads?
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'77 Kombi 2L dual carbs
'61 Bug 6V 1600sp

[scrivyscriv]

[tomfreo]

If i were to rebuild I'd likely split the caliper. I'm thinking I might go round to the old guy with the auto shop and ask him to help me pop the pistons out with his air compressor (we were having a chat about this the other day - at least, he was telling me he used to rebuild calipers a lot, and mentioned popping out calipers with compressed air).

Can anyone say, is it easier to pop the pistons out with air before or after the calipers are split?
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'77 Kombi 2L dual carbs
'61 Bug 6V 1600sp

[scrivyscriv]

[tomfreo]

scrivyscriv said:

[SGKent]

What do you use to put air into your tires? You must have access to compressed air somewhere. How about one of your friends or neighbors? Is there a machine shop nearby who could disassemble it and glass bead the rust and crap off for you?
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[williamM]

One of those pucks usually comes out - leaving the other in- so just re-seat that one just inside the caliper, and put a "C" clamp on it till the other pops out-

I had a datson clutch master cylinder that would screw on the caliper and pump thos out of the caliper using brake fluid.- easy clean up and controll of the pellet extraction.
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[SGKent]

Keep fingers out of way. I put a block of wood or a wadded up rag between the pistons and apply air. Pop. One will come out. pull the rubber seal out and push it back in. Hold it with a board and keep your fingers out of the way, apply air and pop the other comes out. Remove the first one by hand which will be easy with no seal. You are done getting the pistons out.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Busdepot]

Here's what I can tell you about the new calipers...
They are OEM calipers originally built for Volkswagen/Brazil. If you look closely you can see where the VW/Audi logo is filed off. They're the last of the new OEM Bus calipers. TRW won't sell them in the U.S. so we have to import them ourselves. We've sold them for a few years and never had a single defect, so clearly the quality is good. By comparison rebuilds can vary, some are good and some not so good, often from the same supplier. The big problem with these ones is availability. They go on backorder for long periods of time. Generally speaking, when that happens it's usually because the supplier isn't selling enough to care much about losing sales, which is not a good sign. Often it's a precursor to the item being discontinued without notice - one day they go on backorder and just never come back. Will that happen in a month? A year? Two? I have absolutely no way of knowing.
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- Ron Salmon
The Bus Depot
www.busdepot.com

[raygreenwood]

A note about caliper rebuild kits and age. The caliper works differently than a master cylinder so assembled calipers on the shelf can still function just fine as long as they do not rust..even after 10 years or so.

Caliper kits...meaning loose parts not installed....can last even longer and still be fine. This does not mean that the rubber parts do not harden somewhat with age...but unlike a master cylinder cup seal...they do do not take a shape "set".

There will be a slight trade off in total life span from using a caliper kit that is say a 15-20 year old NOS...like maybe a couple of years less lifespan.....but only in about 4-5 out of 100 calipers do you see slight dragging from less retraction from hardened seals. If the caliper kits are cheap....its worth the risk as they will not fail from being old.

As far as the "Bridge" seals....I believe they are becoming available more readily as people ...companies...are finding out just how simple these are to make NOW...as compared to say 15-20 years ago.

The vast majority of these bridge seals are not molded....they are either cut on a Microtome or machined CNC.

Back then...there was one main chain of CNC rubber shops in the US that dealt in retail work....and they had the limitations of the era.

Now...I can throw a rock in some areas and hit 6 of them.

Three years ago I had 100 seals made to fit type 3, type 4/914 ATE calipers.

They ran me about $115 total with shipping. They were CNC lathe cut from precision EPDM tube. You can see the machine marks on the faces and rim.

They do this by first installing the tubing...usually with correct ID and oversized OD...on a mandrel of the correct size. Snug fit without stretching. They then chill it to bring the hardness upwards to 80 durometer and then first machine the OD and then separate the seals with a parting tool in one operation.

These seals need to be the most exact...measurement wise....first in thickness. Then in OD....and the ID can actually range upwards to 1/16" as long as its not smaller than and will not encroach on the fluid port.

So as long as you have that small amount of flexibility in ID....its not hard for a CNC rubber company to find tube stock or rubber plug stock that is relatively standard to allow making what would be called a "semi-custom" seal.

The other method...cutting with a microtome...is just as accurate...but since you will not be machining anything to size...you must be able to find tube stock you can use that is the right size in OD and the right range of size in ID.

I am making some bridge seals for someone for Girling calipers by the end of the month with a microtome I have made. I may have extras available. Ray

[tomfreo]

What a f**ker of a job! Got one piston out. Removed seal as advised. Cleaned and popped back in. Now it doesn't hold air (maybe unsurprising really) and the other piston's not moving. What now?
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'77 Kombi 2L dual carbs
'61 Bug 6V 1600sp

[williamM]