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Strange AAZ problem
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brurud
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Strange AAZ problem Reply with quote

Hi all,
I have a aaz conversion in my t3, itís been some weird problems starting it when the engine is cold. During the warmer season it startís, but you will need to let it idle until it get the temp up like 5-10min. If you touch the gas pedal before this it will stop and you will need to turn the engine on the pulley a bit back and forth. Glow and start again and let it idle until temp
Comes up.

But now during winter it will not run at all. It starts and then shuts off. And the next starts it will just turn the flywheel.

If anyone can give me a tips where to start Look itís highly appreciated.

Note: when it has been started and idle until warm, it runs great. No problems to stop for diesel, a hot dog or whatever and start it again. The issue occur when the engine is cold.
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Mike Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

I have something similar at higher altitude in the cold a few years ago. Difficulty starting and it had to warm up before driving.

I cleaned the pump and injectors with Liquid Diesel Moly Purge (running the engine directly from the can) and cleaned the air filter. It solved the problem.

That would be my first two things to do. My third would be to take it to my nearest shop because I had run out of knowledge.

Good luck

Mike
'82 Westy AAZ
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

How long ago was the conversion done?
The AAZ has hydraulic lifters. If the oil pressure is too high the lifters can over expand and then the valves don't close fully. This will stop a diesel from running. I have personally experienced this with AAZ conversions.

I would change the oil to a lighter weight synthetic diesel rated oil as a first step.

Mark
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MsTaboo
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

This maybe over simplifying the problem, but check the wire to the cut off solenoid. Make sure the connection is tight. I had a loose push-on connector that was just tight enough to start the engine then it would die as soon as there was any movement.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

Wish I had something to offer, but am still learning. I can commiserate with you as to the perplexing quirks of an AAZ if that helps Very Happy

I do know that you got three knowledge AAZ folks right out of the gate. Iíd look into their advice. Please post what you find down the road. (Iím bookmarking this thread so when it happens to me.... Rolling Eyes )

Good luck!
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brurud
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:56 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for input guys. I will check the wiring to the cut off solenoid. The conversion was done I think last year. And then the car was sold earlier this year, but there were some wiring and stuff missing. I have recently bought it and inherit the problem.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:09 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

Post a picture of your engine if you get a chance - Iíd be curious to see the differences. What was the original? Diesel?

Iíve found a few wires cut on mine also, slowly learning their purpose - Iím assuming most were for the prior engine and not needed as it seems to run fine.
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brurud
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

Alaskaberrys wrote:
Post a picture of your engine if you get a chance - Iíd be curious to see the differences. What was the original? Diesel?

Iíve found a few wires cut on mine also, slowly learning their purpose - Iím assuming most were for the prior engine and not needed as it seems to run fine.


I will try make a photo ASAP. Originally it was a jx engine in this one. 86, syncro doka
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:54 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

brurud wrote:
Alaskaberrys wrote:
Post a picture of your engine if you get a chance - Iíd be curious to see the differences. What was the original? Diesel?

Iíve found a few wires cut on mine also, slowly learning their purpose - Iím assuming most were for the prior engine and not needed as it seems to run fine.


I will try make a photo ASAP. Originally it was a jx engine in this one. 86, syncro doka


Same with mine. A JX in a Ď91 syncro doka. Still learning which parts are original JX. Injector pump and perhaps the valve cover.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

Yeah, about that valve cover.
How exactly did you swing that? The AAZ head has three bolts on the top to hold it down, and most people get a small oil leak as a result. It's the JX that has the eight bolts around the edge. Think

From the pic, I agree, the IP and Valve cover (and possibly head) are JX parts.
It looks a lot cleaner than my install does. I have unloomed wires going here and there, to sensors and connections that are not original.
(On a side note, MY conversion was done with the help of a German mechanic, who not only HAS three of these, but also has done the motor swap on all three himself.)
Next week I'm going to change my oil filter Housing (again!), and I will take a few snaps of my Spaghetti-Monster mess for you.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

How long has it been since you changed your filter? When cold weather hits, fuel thickens and a clogged filter causes the exact symptoms you describe. Even if your filter was recently changed, very fine particles in dirty fuel (or even ANTS!) can rapidly clog it and restrict fuel flow. One diagnostic is to pour hot water over the filter and wait a few minutes before starting. Can also be a clogged intake tube in your fuel tank. Or your pump might be worn out.

That pump with the rear mounted aneroid is definitely JX.
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brurud
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

Gnarlodious wrote:
How long has it been since you changed your filter? When cold weather hits, fuel thickens and a clogged filter causes the exact symptoms you describe. Even if your filter was recently changed, very fine particles in dirty fuel (or even ANTS!) can rapidly clog it and restrict fuel flow. One diagnostic is to pour hot water over the filter and wait a few minutes before starting. Can also be a clogged intake tube in your fuel tank. Or your pump might be worn out.

That pump with the rear mounted aneroid is definitely JX.


Thanks for input. The filter and oil is brand new, run like 20km now. The pump however is not new and could very well be the problem if symptoms like these can point to the diesel pump
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

But what weight oil was put in? A winter weight? How cold is it where you are?

The diesel engines make very high oil pressure when cold. As the oil warms up the oil pressure drops. If your oil pressure relief valve isn't doing its job properly you could be over expanding the lifters when the oil is cold and you rev the engine. My suggestion for changing to a lighter oil wasn't meant as a "fix", it was meant as a simple diagnostic tool to help determine if your problem has anything to do with excessive oil pressure.

Gnarlodious was asking about your fuel filter.

Of course fuel supply could be the problem and cold weather can trigger air leaks that let the fuel drain out of the pump and back to the tank. The pump then has air in it instead of staying full of diesel. This is why it can be so helpful to have clear fuel hoses into and out of the fuel pump. Then you can see if excessive air is going into or out of the pump once the engine starts. This is a common issue in cold weather, when things shrink and leaks can get worse.

Mark

brurud wrote:

Thanks for input. The filter and oil is brand new, run like 20km now. The pump however is not new and could very well be the problem if symptoms like these can point to the diesel pump
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:56 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
But what weight oil was put in? A winter weight? How cold is it where you are?

The diesel engines make very high oil pressure when cold. As the oil warms up the oil pressure drops. If your oil pressure relief valve isn't doing its job properly you could be over expanding the lifters when the oil is cold and you rev the engine. My suggestion for changing to a lighter oil wasn't meant as a "fix", it was meant as a simple diagnostic tool to help determine if your problem has anything to do with excessive oil pressure.

Gnarlodious was asking about your fuel filter.

Of course fuel supply could be the problem and cold weather can trigger air leaks that let the fuel drain out of the pump and back to the tank. The pump then has air in it instead of staying full of diesel. This is why it can be so helpful to have clear fuel hoses into and out of the fuel pump. Then you can see if excessive air is going into or out of the pump once the engine starts. This is a common issue in cold weather, when things shrink and leaks can get worse.

Mark

brurud wrote:

Thanks for input. The filter and oil is brand new, run like 20km now. The pump however is not new and could very well be the problem if symptoms like these can point to the diesel pump


Sorry for late reply, i had to check With the previous owner. He said it`s 15-40 oil on it.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:58 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

I would drain the oil and change to a 0w40 Synthetic that will be much thinner when cold. This may let the engine start and warm up like it could in warmer days. If this for sure helps then it points to a problem with the oil pressure relief valve which is part of the oil pump pickup assembly. This part may have been moved from the old engine when the AAZ conversion was done. A new T3 one is available.

When the engine is cold and you turn the key to start it the starter motor has to move the mass of the turning parts of the engine and also push against the compression of the pistons. If the lifters are expanded by too high pressure this removes the compression of the pistons and so the engine should then turn faster but won't start. Can you tell if this is happening when you try again to start it after it stops? You may be able to hear this turning speed difference. That is how I found it the first time.


Mark
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:41 am    Post subject: Re: Strange aaz problem Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
I would drain the oil and change to a 0w40 Synthetic that will be much thinner when cold. This may let the engine start and warm up like it could in warmer days. If this for sure helps then it points to a problem with the oil pressure relief valve which is part of the oil pump pickup assembly. This part may have been moved from the old engine when the AAZ conversion was done. A new T3 one is available.

When the engine is cold and you turn the key to start it the starter motor has to move the mass of the turning parts of the engine and also push against the compression of the pistons. If the lifters are expanded by too high pressure this removes the compression of the pistons and so the engine should then turn faster but won't start. Can you tell if this is happening when you try again to start it after it stops? You may be able to hear this turning speed difference. That is how I found it the first time.


Mark


Thanks so far Mark,
i will try to change for thinner oil, at least to see if it will start With that.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Strange AAZ problem Reply with quote

Update.
I havenít tried to change oil yet, as itís -7-10 degrees C here now and the workshop is first ready tomorrow. But I did a test it today as it come up to 0 degrees all Celsius. It started, but just shuts off hard after few seconds. Not like dying out, but immediately shuts off. Is it the could it be the pump? Seems itís not getting fuel or something.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Strange AAZ problem Reply with quote

Sounds like your injection pump is worn out, fuel filter is clogged or fuel intake at tank is clogged.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Strange AAZ problem Reply with quote

A simple test for fuel supply. At the filter end remove the fuel line from the filter to the injection pump. Use a 1 or 2 liter container of good clean diesel fuel. Put the end of the fuel line down into the container so the injection pump pulls fuel from it. Start the engine. Rev it up. If it runs ok from fuel in the container then you know there is a fuel supply problem from the main tank.

Before you remove the line from the filter, make sure it is clean, so no dirt is pulled into the pump from the container. Also, the container will empty quickly as most of the fuel will pass through the pump and out the return line to the fuel tank.

Mark


brurud wrote:
Update.
I havenít tried to change oil yet, as itís -7-10 degrees C here now and the workshop is first ready tomorrow. But I did a test it today as it come up to 0 degrees all Celsius. It started, but just shuts off hard after few seconds. Not like dying out, but immediately shuts off. Is it the could it be the pump? Seems itís not getting fuel or something.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Strange AAZ problem Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
A simple test for fuel supply. At the filter end remove the fuel line from the filter to the injection pump. Use a 1 or 2 liter container of good clean diesel fuel. Put the end of the fuel line down into the container so the injection pump pulls fuel from it. Start the engine. Rev it up. If it runs ok from fuel in the container then you know there is a fuel supply problem from the main tank.

Before you remove the line from the filter, make sure it is clean, so no dirt is pulled into the pump from the container. Also, the container will empty quickly as most of the fuel will pass through the pump and out the return line to the fuel tank.

Mark


brurud wrote:
Update.
I havenít tried to change oil yet, as itís -7-10 degrees C here now and the workshop is first ready tomorrow. But I did a test it today as it come up to 0 degrees all Celsius. It started, but just shuts off hard after few seconds. Not like dying out, but immediately shuts off. Is it the could it be the pump? Seems itís not getting fuel or something.


Okay, hereís update. I had it for about one week in the workshop now. Until yesterday I havenít got it starting. Then I tried to change oil to 5w40 and change oil filter. I also connected back on the extra oil cooler. Now it starts, but
It doesnít run good in the first minute. Squealing from belt and smoke grey. If I touch the gas pedal it will shut off and it seems the compression is gone. Tried to turn it by hand on the crank shaft and it regain compression again. It will start again and I let it idle for 5-10min and it runs great. Had a spin around the neighbor. Tested the vc and the lock. But why can I not start driving immediately? Why does it seem to loose compression?
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