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Riveraking76
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2017
Posts: 12
Location: Alabama
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 Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: Timing on my bus |
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I am trying to get some advice about timing for my bus. I've read all of the internet and everyone has something different to say.
Here's what I got
80 2L (in my 79 Bay)
It's an automatic
Rebuilt about 2 months ago. All new everything but the drive shaft and case.
I have electronic ignition.
I had the timing set by a local VW guy. He set it to 4 Degrees ATDC. It ran bad.
It would back fire and die when I left a stop sign until I ran it up to 55 for about 10 mins then it seemed to improve. I had no power from 0-5 mph. Then it would kick in with power. Sometimes If I gave it gas it would pop. It would also "diesel" when I turned it off.
I set it to 16 BTDC today and it runs much better. I lowered the idle speed a bit but I might have to raise it back because my oil pressure light is coming on when I stop at a stop sign.
Any ideas what I might need to set the timing at? It's running fine but I don't want to damage it.
Thanks, |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Timing on my bus |
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Welcome!
| Riveraking76 wrote: |
| ........ It's running fine but I don't want to damage it...... |
Then stop driving it until you have read and done what I've quoted below (disregard the type 1 stuff), 16 BTDC will melt it down in no time at all.
| busdaddy wrote: |
All that book spec stuff only works if all the parts are matched from the factory and brand new, after 40+ years springs lose thier mojo and diapragms harden, do it this way:
| busdaddy wrote: |
Here's the sermon 
First you need to determine exactly where TDC is on your pulley and then set the timing at speed like this: Here's my timing for noobs rundown (keep in mind this assumes you have a degree wheel, timing scale or dial advance timing light and know where TDC really is, if you don't understand the marks on your type 1 pulley read this: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=251672&highlight=stock+pulley+marks ). Or if type 4 see this: http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html
If you only have one hose attached to your distributor pull it off, you don't need to cap it (no need on single hose systems), if you have 2 pull them both off but plug the one that was connected to the nipple facing the distributor (retard {not you, that's what the hose does}). Now connect the timing light to the battery and the #1 plug wire according to the timing light instructions (and set it to zero if it's the type with adjustments). Now start the engine and shoot the timing light at the scale and pulley (hold the light in your right hand), see the mark on the pulley?, good. Now using your left hand slowly open the throttle on the side of the carb or throttle body (move it the same way the cable pulls it) and watch the timing mark VS: the scale, the mark on the pulley should start to move to the left, open the throttle a little more and continue until the mark no longer moves to the left any more (yes it's loud, isn't it?), give it a bit more throttle just to confirm the mark is staying put at wherever it stopped (hopefully 28 degrees) and then release the throttle. If it stopped at 28 move on to carb/FI adjustment, if it went past or didn't make it all the way loosen the distributor clamp a little and turn the distributor a few degrees one way or the other (you pick, if it's worse go the other way), repeat until you find the happy spot and don't forget to tighten the clamp when you are done (make sure the distributor is pushed down all the way into the case too). Avoid loose fitting clothing and long hair near spinning fans and belts too, no need for a trip to emergency. Now put the hose(s) back on, pack up the timing light and move on to carb or FI adjustment. |
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:43 am Post subject: Re: Timing on my bus |
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Welcome to The Samba 
I think first of all, some pictures and some more info about your bus would help, so that others can give you a better answer.
E.g.:
• Do you still have an emissions sticker at the back of the engine compartment's door? That should tell you the factory timing for your bus, if you haven't changed the engine much.
• Is it a California or Federal bus? The emissions sticker and a picture of the engine compartment should help in determining that.
• Is your bus FI or does it have carbs? Is it close to stock?
• Which distributor do you have? The part number is stamped on the distributor case.
| Riveraking76 wrote: |
| I am trying to get some advice about timing for my bus. I've read all of the internet and everyone has something different to say. |
I think if you can tell more about your bus and throw a couple of pictures, you should get the right answer for what the correct timing for your bus is without having to guess.
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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Riveraking76
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2017
Posts: 12
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Timing on my bus |
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| Quote: |
Do you still have an emissions sticker at the back of the engine compartment's door? That should tell you the factory timing for your bus, if you haven't changed the engine much. Do you still have an emissions sticker at the back of the engine compartment's door? That should tell you the factory timing for your bus, if you haven't changed the engine much.
• Is it a California or Federal bus? The emissions sticker and a picture of the engine compartment should help in determining that.
• Is your bus FI or does it have carbs? Is it close to stock?
• Which distributor do you have? The part number is stamped on the distributor case. |
I'll post a pic. It says 7.5. That's for the stock 2L fuel injected. I'm a 2L Carb now. I can't see the part number. Where would I Find it?
| Quote: |
| Then stop driving it until you have read and done what I've quoted below (disregard the type 1 stuff), 16 BTDC will melt it down in no time at all. |
It's parked now. I plan to work on it again and try both what you suggest and the 7.5 stock suggestion as a starting point.
Some pics.
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Timing on my bus |
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| Riveraking76 wrote: |
| I'll post a pic. It says 7.5. That's for the stock 2L fuel injected. I'm a 2L Carb now. I can't see the part number. Where would I Find it? |
Ok, the pictures help. Generally, the part number is on the side of the distributor case, but depending on the orientation of the distributor, you cannot see it when it is installed. That seems to be your case.
From the pictures, it seems you've got:
- a Federal bus (converted from FI to carbs as you said)
- a distributor without vacuum advance (is it a 009 distributor?, I'm not an expert on those) with (Pertronix?) electronic ignition. The vacuum can might be hidden from the angle the pictures were taken, so it's difficult to tell.
If that's the case (009 distributor), you might want to consider whether it is a good choice to keep that distributor or use a stock one with both mechanical and vacuum advance instead. If that's not the case, then forget this piece of advice
From http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FAQ/FAQContent.html#0114
| Quote: |
Before you consider the 009 (Bosch 0 231 178 009), stop and think: the 009 was NEVER installed on any model by VW at the factory. [...]
Although unsuitable it will still allow your engine to operate just not as well as the stock distributor. The technical reason that the 009 is unsuitable is that it advances 20-22 degrees maximum under all conditions so the total advance from the static setting of 7.5 would be about 28-30 degrees. Since the VW engine needs varying amounts of advance under partial throttle conditions the ignition system can't keep up with the demands of the engine. This can be compensated for partially by setting the static advance to 10 degrees but since the 009 only has one advance spring inside (weak) instead of two (weak + strong), the maximum advance also comes in too fast (around 2600rpm). |
I'm not familiar with carb setups, so others with more expertise might want to chime in here regarding the choice of distributor.
| Riveraking76 wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| Then stop driving it until you have read and done what I've quoted below (disregard the type 1 stuff), 16 BTDC will melt it down in no time at all. |
It's parked now. I plan to work on it again and try both what you suggest and the 7.5 stock suggestion as a starting point. |
Coincidentally, there is also a recent thread where some folks helped me with my questions about timing, and both methods are discussed (static timing at 7.5° and full mechanical advance at 28°).
It's a long read, so you might want to start here.
Good luck!
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Timing on my bus |
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get a shield on that fan like yesterday. You'll save yourself a huge headache if something accidentally gets in there whether plastic bag, tool or etc.
sticker means nothing anymore unless you put all original FI equipment and distributor back in it.
28 - 30 degrees BTDC at RPM full in and that is why you need a fan protector yesterday.
Timing mark if the fan is original 2L bay fan.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Riveraking76
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2017
Posts: 12
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Timing on my bus |
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| Quote: |
| get a shield on that fan like yesterday. You'll save yourself a huge headache if something accidentally gets in there whether plastic bag, tool or etc. |
I have one that just arrived. Putting it on tomorrow. I think I have all the timing marks correct. I just needed to know where to set the timing.
| Quote: |
| 28 - 30 degrees BTDC at RPM full in and that is why you need a fan protector yesterday. |
I know this seems obvious but you mean full throttle at while in park. (before buying this bus 5 years ago I didn't even know engines had a timing. So I need some slack here)
| Quote: |
a distributor without vacuum advance (is it a 009 distributor?, I'm not an expert on those) with (Pertronix?) electronic ignition. The vacuum can might be hidden from the angle the pictures were taken, so it's difficult to tell.
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It does have a vacuum. Just one. I ordered this one new but I think it's stock.
Thanks for all the help. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Timing on my bus |
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it is not "full throttle" but about 3500 - 4000 RPM. If you can't tell, you just watch the timing mark until it stops moving. It should stop about 28 - 30 degrees BTDC. Hose off the distributor when doing this. No hair, long sleeves etc that can get caught in the belt or fan. You keep 100% presence where your hands are at all times.
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Timing on my bus |
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| Riveraking76 wrote: |
| I think I have all the timing marks correct. |
The picture shows several marks on your fan's pulley, which can be confusing. You just need to use one timing mark on the pulley. See http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html and the pictures SGKent posted.
| Riveraking76 wrote: |
| I know this seems obvious but you mean full throttle at while in park. (before buying this bus 5 years ago I didn't even know engines had a timing. So I need some slack here) |
Assuming the engine does start, here's my interpretation of the timing procedure at full mechanical advance. It's essentially what busdaddy already posted, but in different words:
1. Vehicle parked, in neutral.
2. Loosen up the distributor's long hex nut so that it still sits tight but you can rotate the distributor slightly.
3. Connect your timing light as per its instructions (generally one terminal to the battery and a clamp with the right direction around the spark plug #1 ignition wire)
4. Turn the engine on
5. Point the timing light to the scale and pulley and watch the timing angle at idle. If that works, you're all set to start timing.
6. Slowly rev up (e.g. by pulling the throttle cable) until you find the point (angle) where increasing the revolutions does not vary the timing angle anymore. That is the maximum mechanical advance from the distributor, which should come at about 3500 RPM, but it might also be before that.
7. Turn the distributor so that the timing light points to the 28° BTDC mark
8. You're now all set. Turn off the engine.
9. Tighten the distributor long hex nut again, so that the distributor no longer rotates and is locked in place.
| Riveraking76 wrote: |
| furgo wrote: |
a distributor without vacuum advance (is it a 009 distributor?, I'm not an expert on those) with (Pertronix?) electronic ignition. The vacuum can might be hidden from the angle the pictures were taken, so it's difficult to tell.
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It does have a vacuum. Just one. I ordered this one new but I think it's stock. |
Ok, cool. So the can could not be seen from the picture. As I said then, ignore the comments about the vacuum-less distributor
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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CarlosZ
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2016
Posts: 319
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Timing on my bus |
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| Looks like your distributor drive gear might installed off by 180° |
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CarlosZ
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2016
Posts: 319
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Timing on my bus |
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| Looks like your distributor drive gear might installed off by 180° |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Timing on my bus |
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| Aftermarket 009 dizzies can have widely varying amounts of centrifugal advance. If they are timed at idle or statically the timing under load at higher engine speeds can be way way off. Much better to time your engine at 28° BTDC at 3500+ rpms. |
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