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sshulk
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 Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:10 pm Post subject: type 4 build thread |
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So its time to start rebuilding my type 4 1.7 914 engine. I am going to be posting most, if not all of my progress here. As well as lots on photos. To start, I will remove all the tins, and bring the motor down to the long block. Here is what i have now.
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Danwvw
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sshulk
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| Where is it's car? |
I just have an engine. I plan on putting it into my 73 superbeetle
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Danwvw
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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I saw a article in Hot VW last year about I think it was Chico or somebody using the 1700cc Type 4 engines as a core to build some weird kind of stroker running honda rods. But are you going to keep it a 66mm stroke?
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sshulk
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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most likely, yes. if not a 66mm, then a 71mm or a 78mm. It depends on the current condition of the crankshaft inside the engine.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:39 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Very good start!
Ok....first things.
There are a few items I can see in the pictures that indicate that whoever worked on this engine.....was an amateur.....and I do not mean that in a horrible way.....but its the only word I could find.
There is a little too much of "throw things at it and make it,work"....going on. But....its mainly from the outside.
So there could be nothing bad going on inside.....or it could be "GEX-like" on the inside 
1. Clean this engine very well with a pressure washer,and or carb cleaner especially around the pushrod tubes
2. Take this apart carefully and slowly.....starting with removing the rocker arms and pushrods.....and mark them to the cylinder they came from and,whether they fame from exhaust or intake.
Use good quality ziplock bags and a sharpie marker.
3. Pull the lifters out NOW.....and mark them the same way....what cylinder and which valve. Put them aside so they do not get mixed up, dropped or jumbled.
Treat all parts CAREFULLY like you are hoing to use them again....even if you do noy plan to.
Why?
Because inspecting them in the correct order and only with any famage they may have from wear or previous installation will tell you MANY, MANY things about how the engine was driven, assembled and cared for.
Also....if some of these parts....like pistons and cylinders....are original German and in great shape....they have value. If for nothing else.....over a period of time while building the engine you WANT.....you will also collect a good supply of servicable spare original parts. You can use them to build a very nice running spare engine.
Its excellent to have a spare engine around for basically free ...especially when learning and building your first few engines......or heck.....for anytime really!
You never know if 5 years down the line.....you get something totally unpredictable like an oil filter that is defective that kills your engine. No ones fault.....and now you have to rebuild....and that takes time. In the meantime.....you could have a spare engine. Ray |
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Danwvw
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
2. Take this apart carefully and slowly.....starting with removing the rocker arms and pushrods.....and mark them to the cylinder they came from and,whether they fame from exhaust or intake.
Use good quality ziplock bags and a sharpie marker. Ray |
I never ever worried about push rods being matched or rocker arms for that matter but I use swivel or elephant feet adjusters and solid rocker shafts now on type 1's. Do Type 4 motors require some special attention keeping rockers & push rods matched? Or Is there some benefit to keeping them matched?
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
2. Take this apart carefully and slowly.....starting with removing the rocker arms and pushrods.....and mark them to the cylinder they came from and,whether they fame from exhaust or intake.
Use good quality ziplock bags and a sharpie marker. Ray |
I never ever worried about push rods being matched or rocker arms for that matter but I use swivel or elephant feet adjusters and solid rocker shafts now on type 1's. Do Type 4 motors require some special attention keeping rockers & push rods matched? Or Is there some benefit to keeping them matched? |
You should worry....at least during disassembly.....because a big part of evaluating a used engine is checking the entire "train" of wear in each stack up.
From cam bearing next to each set of lobes.....to the lobe to lifter wear pattern....to lifter yo bore wear....to pushrod to lifter cup....to pushrod straightness.....to pushrod tip to rocker cup....rocker to shaft wear....valve adjuster to valve wear and finally guide to stem wear.
This is not a long drawn out process. Examining these wear points can tell you how well it was built...whether its factory or was refurbed at some point by an amateur or is all factory....whether its assembly tolerances were sloppy...whether it was abused.....whether it was kept adjusted properly....whether it had good oil change history.
If you take a look at that long painful worn pushrod thread from last month.....you can see that this level of basic inspection could have caught ALL of that before it wiped out a new build....simply by indicating that some parts were shot and should not have been reused.
As I have said 100 times....unless you know where to buy new cases and cranks for type 4....you can't treat these like fairly disposible type 1 engines.
Once you inspect and learn what is available to be learned.....you can always then throw all the parts in the same bucket for cleaning. Ray |
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sshulk
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Ray, you said before i should power wash it. Do you mean in the current state the engine is now, or after i disassemble it? Should I leave the tins on for the powerwashing/cleaning, or take them off first? Anything else need to be removed or added for this step?
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Danwvw
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Any power washing you can do at any point will save having a mess when you pull it apart. I have taken case halves to the carwash, that doesn't go well though.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| Any power washing you can do at any point will save having a mess when you pull it apart. I have taken case halves to the carwash, that doesn't go well though. |
I know what you mean by that last part!  .....man every water spray shot at a case half results in eating water and grease!
Yes...pressure wash the case before dissassembly. Take off a the sheet metal and accessories. Plug the distributor and oil holes.
But....do not do this until the day you plan to disassemble it because some water will get into cylinders and past seals. So take it and pressure wash it in the morning. Twke it home and blow dry as much as possible with compressed sir...and start disassembly NOW....so you cand get everything clean and dry.
So lay out your work area....line up your tools, get your zip locks and sharpy marker....then pressure wash.
Also....before you start any of this....its higly recommended to get an engine stand.
A cheap one from CIP1 or harbor freight with a good four point wheel arrangement ....and ome of the nice 3 or 4 arm heads....will work great. Look for the engine stand thread. Ray |
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sshulk
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Yeah I have one. Its half moon from jbugs. What i meant was shod o remove the distributor and such when i power wash it. But that question has cleared up. Clog the holes. i still have to figure out how to know like which valves. And how to know which pusrod is for exhaust or intake. Still learning. Oh god 
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Danwvw
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Well the rods go like this: Everything else just goes on, accordingly the intakes are the larger valves.
Take lots of pictures as you take it apart.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Take a look at a type 4 head with the manifolds and valve covers off. Look into the intake ports.....see the valve guide and stem? Follow that back to the rocker arm.
The intake valves are the two in the center when looking at the rocker arms. Exhaust are outer on each end. Ray |
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sshulk
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:47 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Ok, i got this manual for Christmas that you recommended ray. Im looking in the part identification numbers. It says for type 4, EC is 1700cc, then for 914 the motor says 1800. I believe this motor is from a 914, thats what the PO told me. How can i tell? because if its a 1800cc, that means that i can rebuild it to 2L correct? but only 1.9L if its a 1700cc. Is there anyway to tell what engine i have?
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danielzink
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Location: Lansing Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:08 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| sshulk wrote: |
| Ok, i got this manual for Christmas that you recommended ray. Im looking in the part identification numbers. It says for type 4, EC is 1700cc, then for 914 the motor says 1800. I believe this motor is from a 914, thats what the PO told me. How can i tell? because if its a 1800cc, that means that i can rebuild it to 2L correct? but only 1.9L if its a 1700cc. Is there anyway to tell what engine i have? |
What size the engine is *now* has absolutely no bearing on what the engine could be built *to*.
You can build a 1700 to 2600 (78.4x103) with the right combination of parts.
Decide where you want to end up with displacement and build from there.
Dan
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sshulk
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:55 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Yes, but for the head size, they are gonna be smaller if they are 1.7.
Want to build a 2056cc
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Danwvw
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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I think the Heads if they are Porsche are different! Probably show a photo of the part number. Someone will know. Also there were other differences. Porsche 914 and Bus engine differences. I read an article in one of the VW magazines years ago that talked about these engines and the problem with the vw heads not going up over a certain RPM and they welded up the sparkplug holes and drilled new ones to fix the limit problem. As I recall the Porsche head was said to not be so restrictive.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| sshulk wrote: |
| Ok, i got this manual for Christmas that you recommended ray. Im looking in the part identification numbers. It says for type 4, EC is 1700cc, then for 914 the motor says 1800. I believe this motor is from a 914, thats what the PO told me. How can i tell? because if its a 1800cc, that means that i can rebuild it to 2L correct? but only 1.9L if its a 1700cc. Is there anyway to tell what engine i have? |
The engine case........just the "block".....as others are noting.....is the same for all engines 1.7L, 1.8L and 2.0L.
The case.....can be rebuilt into anything.
But.....if its a 1.7L....meaning 66mm stroke end 90mm pistons.....it can easily be made into a 1.8L by fly cutting the heads to fit 93mm cylinders. The stroke, crank and rods are the same for 1.7L and 1.8L.
However...if its a 1.8L.....it cannot be built into a 2.0L without changing both the crank and rods....but from there is easy. The 1.8L heads can easily be flycut to fit the 94mm cylinders (if needed).
If its a 1.7L.....just like the 1.8L you can make it into a 2.0L simply by adding,the 2.0L 71mm stroke crank and rods.....but....while its possible to flycut the 1.7L heads to fit a 2.0 cylinder.....unless you are really careful and have just the right pistons to be able to set the deck.....it tends fo have fairly high compression.
That can be no problem.....as long as its taken into account in your engine combination.
The reason why that last part is important.....is because type 4 engines....outside of bus applications where cam and conpression are set up for their weight and low gearing....do not run well with low compression.....and do not run well with excessive deck heights.
So.....if for instance you are not prepared to run 9.0:1 compression or worse.....the 1.7L heads may not be the best to work with without lots of work.....and remember this is your first engine. Keep it somewhat simple.
You can tell if it "was" a 914 engine case from the outside....by where the casd #baxge is. See that slanted casting area with numbers stamped in it ....near the bell housing and just inboard of cylinder #3. Only 914s had the case numbers stamped there because tbey engines were backwards.
As to what it "IS" now....it could have been modified or not. Only way to know is to take it apart and see. Ray |
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