| Author |
Message |
nextgen
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6032
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
calvinater
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2014
Posts: 3330
Location: 802 The Pointless Forrest
|
 Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:15 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
 |
|
Been there done that. When i was a kid in jersey in the 70’s it seems they would just spread sand
_________________
"Albatross"! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:56 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
Yeah, Went out and shoveled again and made 200. Roads were alright here, but i'm sure going into New York was a mess!
_________________
17 years old
German Looker in the Making
73 Super Autostick OG paint Marina Blue
72 Super
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3446
Location: San Diego
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
Ok guys have been doing a LOT of research part wise. I was told before to stay with a lower cc for my first engine build. Is that because of parts not going to match up? Why shouldn't i do a bigger engine? I ask this because I made a list of most of the parts ill need for the 2056 build, then I see a raby kit for 9400. add that with a Klaus shroud, exhaust, and carbs. Its only really another 3000 more for all the parts that were made to go together by and expert? Say i could build a 2270, 175 hp with the properly chosen parts. Is it worth it? Even is a 2270 would be harder to build, I could still go to the raby 2056 kit no? Or alternativly, I could use everything in the engine, change to a big bore kit. new cam, carbs, exhaust and cooling.
As I see it, These would be my options
1. Raby Kit 2270, 911 fan or dtm, Tangerine exhaust, Raby Cam, dual 44's
2. Raby Kit 2056 911 fan or dtm, Tangerine exhaust, Raby Cam, dual 44's
3. 2056, (Me choosing parts) 911 fan or dtm, Tangerine exhaust, Raby Cam, dual 44's
4. 1911 (going cheap as possible to gain basic knowledge) 911 fan or dtm, Tangerine exhaust, Raby Cam, dual 40's After new knowledge is acquired, save up and do the 2270 from raby.
What do you guys think?
_________________
17 years old
German Looker in the Making
73 Super Autostick OG paint Marina Blue
72 Super
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7549
Location: Santa Cruz
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
#4
_________________
Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
Ok i have a question. For the fan shroud im. Using the Klaus blower ii. It has the air hoses so I can use heat. I need and exhaust. My question. For the exhaust I should i still go with the tangerine ? Its going to cost 3000 for 1-5/8. With dual tip muffler and with heat. Is the tangerine really worth 3000? If it is someone want to tell me why?
_________________
17 years old
German Looker in the Making
73 Super Autostick OG paint Marina Blue
72 Super
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MConstable
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1822
Location: Saint Charles IL
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
All bullshit aside, since you have the money to spend, I would seriously stop messing around with all of the guesswork and headache.
Get a Raby 2270 175 turnkey, then send it to Shag (SL1) for a turbo setup, he will make an exhaust custom for it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
Haha. I wouldnt say i have the money to spend. I make like 1000 per month. So I have a budget. But isn't a raby 2270 like 20000? That's a bit too much for me. Dont get me wring. It would be great. But it would take a year and a half to get that much money. Thats a lot of time. Plus I would like to do it myself. Also. The raby kit won't come with a 911 shroud
_________________
17 years old
German Looker in the Making
73 Super Autostick OG paint Marina Blue
72 Super
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3293
Location: Rapid City, SD
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
#4, Web cam, V.Speed exhaust, Cali upright conversion. Maybe add a 71mm crank if yours needs work.
Save the extra money and buy a decent welder to build your Cali conversion and learn to weld. A good welder and some practice will get you farther down the road now and later in life than any $3k overpriced exhaust. With the welder, some other tools and time you can build your own exhaust.
Brian |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MConstable
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1822
Location: Saint Charles IL
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
| Brian_e wrote: |
#4, Web cam, V.Speed exhaust, Cali upright conversion. Maybe add a 71mm crank if yours needs work.
Save the extra money and buy a decent welder to build your Cali conversion and learn to weld. A good welder and some practice will get you farther down the road now and later in life than any $3k overpriced exhaust. With the welder, some other tools and time you can build your own exhaust.
Brian |
Joe sent him the manual for free
Sshulk didn’t think that “look” was for him, he wants form over Function. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
Yes and no.
You can make the 911 fan work and if you have heard about the Klaus shroud. It supplies even airflow to all 4 cylinders. It is very popular in Europe. Also. Just because i want a different fan shroud. Doesn't mean that i will not go with the cali conversion. I have been looking the manual and pricing it out. So before you jump to conclusions about what i want, I need to figure out if the ends justify the means.
_________________
17 years old
German Looker in the Making
73 Super Autostick OG paint Marina Blue
72 Super
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
| Brian_e wrote: |
#4, Web cam, V.Speed exhaust, Cali upright conversion. Maybe add a 71mm crank if yours needs work.
Save the extra money and buy a decent welder to build your Cali conversion and learn to weld. A good welder and some practice will get you farther down the road now and later in life than any $3k overpriced exhaust. With the welder, some other tools and time you can build your own exhaust.
Brian |
Only concern about the vs exhaust is the heat. And ground clearencing. I heard they break easy if they tap the ground. Maybe the could bolt up to a pair of shortened tuner heater boxes. Csp sells them and so does BAS. Also i may go with the cali conversion for the cheaper build. Im assuming the cali conversion. Yeah i need to see the stock crank to determine whether i need new crank. If i do. A non counterweighted 71mm. Would i be able to use the same rods or would i need new ones ? Also go with new heads or use the stock heads. I would say go with the heads I have already since this is the cheap engine build. Then upgrade later when I get a new engine.
_________________
17 years old
German Looker in the Making
73 Super Autostick OG paint Marina Blue
72 Super
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nextgen
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6032
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
| sshulk wrote: |
Ok guys have been doing a LOT of research part wise. I was told before to stay with a lower cc for my first engine build. Is that because of parts not going to match up? Why shouldn't i do a bigger engine? I ask this because I made a list of most of the parts ill need for the 2056 build, then I see a raby kit for 9400. add that with a Klaus shroud, exhaust, and carbs. Its only really another 3000 more for all the parts that were made to go together by and expert? Say i could build a 2270, 175 hp with the properly chosen parts. Is it worth it? Even is a 2270 would be harder to build, I could still go to the raby 2056 kit no? Or alternativly, I could use everything in the engine, change to a big bore kit. new cam, carbs, exhaust and cooling.
As I see it, These would be my options
1. Raby Kit 2270, 911 fan or dtm, Tangerine exhaust, Raby Cam, dual 44's
2. Raby Kit 2056 911 fan or dtm, Tangerine exhaust, Raby Cam, dual 44's
3. 2056, (Me choosing parts) 911 fan or dtm, Tangerine exhaust, Raby Cam, dual 44's
4. 1911 (going cheap as possible to gain basic knowledge) 911 fan or dtm, Tangerine exhaust, Raby Cam, dual 40's After new knowledge is acquired, save up and do the 2270 from raby.
What do you guys think? |
Why should you not go larger than a 2056 on your first build...even with a Raby/Type 4 store kit?
Because even though those kits are fairly comprehensive and high quality in parts...fitting them together PROPERLY so they survive longer than a type 1....and fueling and igniting and exhausting and cooling it properly...take a LOT, LOT more work and know how than a building a 1911 or even a 2056 at the top end.
The 1911 and is roughly a stock parts engine and is well within the baseline capabilities of virtually all stock parts. A whole lot of questions do not even have to be asked.
The 2056...is just above the edge of stock parts....but with the well made kit...is still just a very careful build.
With the much bigger engines type 4 ...there are a lot more destructive mistakes that can be made. Virtually everything in it is custom or modified stock.
And....You should easily have about $1000 worth of quality measuring tools for any of these engines...but since the 1911 and 2056 are basically advanced stock engines...your tolerances can be anywhere in the allowable factory tolerances and you can be just fine with the basics for a few hundred.
As you move upward to higher horsepower and more displacement....you will need to quite a bit more discerning in measurements and tolerances.
Others will say...no you don't...but we are NOT talking type 1 engines here. We are talking type 4 engines.
Even a basic stock type 4 is going to run 2-3X in GOOD parts what a type 1 engine stocker will.
Getting into larger engines like that...and all of the fueling, cooling and exhausting...you can be several times more in cost than a similar type 1 engine.
Mistakes made from lack of experience on a type 1 are bad enough when it craters....but virtually all of a type 1 engine can be replaced with a few hours of shopping. That will not be the case when you crater a type 4 engine.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
ok. good to know. So. I have been pricing this out. I made a spread sheet with all 4 options
Option 4 comes in at around 4000. Id assume its actually somewhere between 5-6000 After everything. I would still have to pay for clutch, flywheel. Question though, I am going to use heat, so would the CSP shorted heater boxes be a good exhaust for a 1911? It looks like they would be able to bolt up to a vintage speed muffler.
https://www.csp-shop.com/en/exhaust-heating/heat-e...1517500021
I think I would still go with the raby cam kit, because it will come with, the 911 ajusters, adjuster nuts. Cam Gear. Lifters, pushrods. And I have read great things about them. Then I would go with a set of dual 40 carbs. Unless 44s would work? I have a feeling the 44s might be too big. but i do not know. Then the AA pistons, 96mm slip in P&C. They are good because I have 1.8 heads, and they do not need machining to accept the 96 bore. Then the cali converision, So i can use the flaps for colder driving.
How does all that sound? Im gonna save the big stuff for the next build 
im hoping for 120 hp is that possible?
_________________
17 years old
German Looker in the Making
73 Super Autostick OG paint Marina Blue
72 Super
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers
Last edited by sshulk on Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nextgen
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6032
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:35 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
What I am about to say is Elephant in the Room!!!! Rarely if at all does anyone really get into it when thinking T-4 Upright Conversions.
Example SShulk give it a one liner
"Then the cali conversion, So i can use the flaps for colder driving".
The Cali Style is not the most attractive fanhousing design, but it is probably the most scrutinized, with 84 years of Porsche and VW Engineers tweeking it and actually the design was around before Porsche designed the bug.
My point, the Cali Style is the only one that uses flaps and a thermostat. We all know the reasons why they were designed into the engine. It seems, who cares, ha. Granted, if you live in a warm climate you can get away with out them. Without the flaps and thermo ( went to 90c ) if the outside temp was below 65 F my bug would not get to 170 running temp, more like 120 forever. When I discussed it with Joe the original DTM designer, his answer was, well the customers are happy. Well a lot of his customers are in Europe and most guys at the time that spent the money for a DTM at that time wanted the best, guaranteed to cool their large cc high HP engines that they expected to run hot.
So maybe this should be another post, I wonder how many guys with T-4 engines find their engine temps if not running a THermostat ( Oil Thermostats also count ). Also what is their engine size and were do they live.
Ray I am well aware of your experience with T-4. Wondering if you ever did a T-4 upright conversion or if most of your experiance is with pancake 411 412 with FI etc.
_________________
email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MConstable
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1822
Location: Saint Charles IL
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:26 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
| Holy crap! 1,000.00 for heater boxes. Dayumn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
|
|
Yea, They are quite expensive!!!! The ones from BAS They wanted 1490 EUROS! Which is like 1900!!! OMG.
_________________
17 years old
German Looker in the Making
73 Super Autostick OG paint Marina Blue
72 Super
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
