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sshulk
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Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Interesting jake. Saying you moved on from those cam kits. A question. Have you made a newer version of the cam that you use for your current engine program?
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sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Got a lot of work done today dissasembling the engine. I stopped at the pistons cause I don’t have the pliers to remove the wrist pins. Here are some pics of my progress.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Nice work!
Ray |
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Johncusi
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Joined: March 23, 2018
Posts: 3
Location: OCALA fl
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:07 pm Post subject: Type 4 single IDF INTAKE |
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| Does there exist or anyone have a type for intake for single IDF |
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sshulk
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Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Finished dissasembly today. Based on my judgement, the camshaft and lifters seemed to have only a little wear. And the crankshaft was clean. I didn’t unbolt the connecting rods but I snapped a few pics of everything. I got it alll packed up nicely and when I get some free time I’ll clean up the two case halves. I don’t have the type 4 syndrome either! Here are some progress pics.
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sshulk
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Joined: August 29, 2008
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Location: Succasunna, NJ
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MConstable
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Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1822
Location: Saint Charles IL
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:01 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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You’re not gonna like the answer... the engine has to be mocked up to determine deck height
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sshulk
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Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:05 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| MConstable wrote: |
| You’re not gonna like the answer... the engine has to be mocked up to determine deck height |
Deck height is 91.8mm according to John @ ACN but he recommended not to cut anything, meaning the heads, without having the parts in hand and measuring them. What Len decided to do was put a .75mm step in the heads. So I can reach my desired deck height of 1 to 1.5 mm. He said most p and c are around .25 and if I need to I can shim the cylinders easily.
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Last edited by sshulk on Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:00 am; edited 2 times in total |
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3446
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:59 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| You need to mock up the short block. The deck height is the distance of the piston below the deck of the head at TDC. Need to know the cam and carbs, so compression ratio can be established. This is why the heads need flycut to the proper amount for your motor. Dont guess this, its too important. The heads could be cut later if you arent ready now |
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sshulk
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Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:09 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| You need to mock up the short block. The deck height is the distance of the piston below the deck of the head at TDC. Need to know the cam and carbs, so compression ratio can be established. This is why the heads need flycut to the proper amount for your motor. Dont guess this, its too important. The heads could be cut later if you arent ready now |
No I am not ready yet but I’m having these heads ceramic coated inside and black coated outside. So what do u recommend I do. Have Len wait for me?
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danielzink
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Joined: August 03, 2004
Posts: 282
Location: Lansing Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:31 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| sshulk wrote: |
| chrisflstf wrote: |
| You need to mock up the short block. The deck height is the distance of the piston below the deck of the head at TDC. Need to know the cam and carbs, so compression ratio can be established. This is why the heads need flycut to the proper amount for your motor. Dont guess this, its too important. The heads could be cut later if you arent ready now |
No I am not ready yet but I’m having these heads ceramic coated inside and black coated outside. So what do u recommend I do. Have Len wait for me? |
Have Len wait...
Why would spend all the money you're currently throwing at this thing only do part of the job based on a GUESS ?!?!....
As others have stated...
Get the P's & C's...get the crank...get the rods...flywheel/shims etc....
Build up the short block...get a straight edge and a dial gauge and measure your deck properly..
Why would you half ass a multi thousand dollar engine ?
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sshulk
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Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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I agree I’m going to see if Len can wait. I agree with not going in a guess while spending already tons of money. But I agree to measure this properly and wait the correct time
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| sshulk wrote: |
| I agree I’m going to see if Len can wait. I agree with not going in a guess while spending already tons of money. But I agree to measure this properly and wait the correct time |
Good answer!
And...based on your pictures...the cam and lifters are junk. In fact...if its a stock cam its junk even if its new.
See the wear mark down the middle of the lobe?...even if its not yet a depression..the fact that you can see it means its got LOTS of miles.
But...just for the heck of it...take a drill and drill out the rivets and keep the cam gear if its an aluminum one. If its anything other than a "0" numbered gear ...it has value if its aluminum.
Toss the cam in the recycle bin...and save a couple of old lifters. They are excellent for using in a press to assemble pushrods and are good in general in a press or vice to drive things.
Ray |
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sshulk
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Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Ok. A member in my club is looking for a cam to make a trophy or something so I’m going to most likely give it to him and keep the gear if it’s aluminum. Len said he could wait but asked if I would be able to complete payment because the work is already done. Most likely I will will pay most if not the rest of payment. I know he is legit and has a good rep. Then I guess next is prepping the case. Cleaning. Oil galleys. New plugs I think. I’ve been reading a few threads and have gained so new info. I’ll let you all know what I’m planning. Thanks. Max
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| sshulk wrote: |
| Ok. A member in my club is looking for a cam to make a trophy or something so I’m going to most likely give it to him and keep the gear if it’s aluminum. Len said he could wait but asked if I would be able to complete payment because the work is already done. Most likely I will will pay most if not the rest of payment. I know he is legit and has a good rep. Then I guess next is prepping the case. Cleaning. Oil galleys. New plugs I think. I’ve been reading a few threads and have gained so new info. I’ll let you all know what I’m planning. Thanks. Max |
For the moment....you do not need to get deep into the cleaning....if thats in the way of time.
Really for the moment....I would clean just enough to lay the crank and one rod in the case in the old main and rod bearings (if they are the same size.)....and mock up one cylinder....and one piston with no rings. You can get a deck height right there so you can call Len and get your heads in motion. Then you can clean the heck out of it. Just get it clean enough to mock up one cylinder.
Yes...you will need to mock and check all four eventually to make sure everything is straight....but if your case crank and rods have not left the house.....you can get a good idea right now. Ray |
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sshulk
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Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| sshulk wrote: |
| Ok. A member in my club is looking for a cam to make a trophy or something so I’m going to most likely give it to him and keep the gear if it’s aluminum. Len said he could wait but asked if I would be able to complete payment because the work is already done. Most likely I will will pay most if not the rest of payment. I know he is legit and has a good rep. Then I guess next is prepping the case. Cleaning. Oil galleys. New plugs I think. I’ve been reading a few threads and have gained so new info. I’ll let you all know what I’m planning. Thanks. Max |
For the moment....you do not need to get deep into the cleaning....if thats in the way of time.
Really for the moment....I would clean just enough to lay the crank and one rod in the case in the old main and rod bearings (if they are the same size.)....and mock up one cylinder....and one piston with no rings. You can get a deck height right there so you can call Len and get your heads in motion. Then you can clean the heck out of it. Just get it clean enough to mock up one cylinder.
Yes...you will need to mock and check all four eventually to make sure everything is straight....but if your case crank and rods have not left the house.....you can get a good idea right now. Ray |
That’s a good idea but I’m getting new 96mm p and c. New 71 mm crank. H beams. New cam. New bearings. Everything is new so I can’t mock it up.
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MConstable
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Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1822
Location: Saint Charles IL
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:36 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Ok...question for the Sambanistas about this situation...
In Type 1 land, the sought after deck height is usually .040.
If you have too little you add shims, too much and you have to get the cylinders turned down.
If it's the same scenario with the Type IV, couldn't sshulk have the heads finished, because if the deck ends up being off from what's desired, he's looking at shims or modding the cylinders, which won't affect the heads anyway?
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Wreck
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Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1218
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| MConstable wrote: |
Ok...question for the Sambanistas about this situation...
In Type 1 land, the sought after deck height is usually .040.
If you have too little you add shims, too much and you have to get the cylinders turned down.
If it's the same scenario with the Type IV, couldn't sshulk have the heads finished, because if the deck ends up being off from what's desired, he's looking at shims or modding the cylinders, which won't affect the heads anyway? |
Yes I chose the deck height I wanted when I worked out the what engine I was building (103x78) , I went with .005 deck with a .040 copper head gasket ,total of .045 then machined the case and cylinders and shimmed the cylinders to suit .
SS hulk I would recommend getting the case decked to make sure the cylinders sit flat . If it were me, I would tell Len to set the heads for a .040 deck then when you get the crank rods etc , mock up the engine and check ALL FOUR the deck heights , if you have too much get the case decked to suit , if not enough but the decks are even then just shim the cylinders . you don't need fancy tools to check the deck , just something flat that is solid to bolt the cylinder down with and a set of feeler gauges .
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raygreenwood
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Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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| MConstable wrote: |
Ok...question for the Sambanistas about this situation...
In Type 1 land, the sought after deck height is usually .040.
If you have too little you add shims, too much and you have to get the cylinders turned down.
If it's the same scenario with the Type IV, couldn't sshulk have the heads finished, because if the deck ends up being off from what's desired, he's looking at shims or modding the cylinders, which won't affect the heads anyway? |
Not easily....or should I say reliably. The problem he is dealing with with Len....is the question about the step cut in the heads.
If he mocks up the case and cylinders....and the case is finished and he has .040" to .045" deck.....and the heads arrive with the 0.32" step cut in them....then he now has .072" to .077" total deck. No shims will fix that.
The heads go back to have the step flycut out....or the cylinders go to the machine shop to be trimmed on a lathe.
If he has near 0 deck already and the heads come in with the .032" step....he can add a thin shim at the base and be good...as you suspect.
If the head comes in with no step....then yes...he can adjust with a base shim....IF.....the piston deck is not already greater than .040" to .045".
So really it is best to wait for the cylinders and rods and mock this up.
The thing to avoid of course is having to put any kind of shim or gasket between the head and cylinder. Ray |
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sshulk
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Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Exactly what I was thinking Ray. How do I get that tool for measuring deck? Is it premade or do I make it myself? Also should I still to have the case decked? Len recommended a 1 to 1.5 mm deck to get around 10:1CR. Does that sound right?
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