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Bad bug Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2006 Posts: 1119 Location: Jamaica
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:03 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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sshulk wrote: |
Ok, so I am back it working on my 914 engine. I had acquired a new car, where this engine will be going in. But on a better not, with my new car I acquired, lots and lots of parts. Some being a set of New, never used Italian 45 dells. Now I see a set of them the exact same for sale currently for $2500. and Im curious if it would be good to use them as they are a bit bigger size. I could sell them, and buy the CB performance kit
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6414.htm
only 779$
or the
http://www.cbperformance.com/Dual-Weber-40-IDF-Kit-Type-4-914-p/6410.htm
same price at $779
What do you guys think? |
Keep your dells they compliment a t4 engine well. I spoke to jake raby sometime ago about which carbs he really liked to use on a t4 engine and he said the dells because the made power and they were smooth. I now have a pair of 48mm trijet dells to rebuild when i am doing my t4 engine. |
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sshulk Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008 Posts: 694 Location: Succasunna, NJ
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:37 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Here are some photos of the carbs. They are in great condition!
_________________ 17 years old
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sshulk Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008 Posts: 694 Location: Succasunna, NJ
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Ok, So i saw an ad for a remachined type 4 oil pump and acted quickly upon it. Thanks to ray, for answering some PMs the day or purchase.
Here are the specs
"Idler Shaft pinned with double set screws"
"End Play was set to .003"
"Backlash as measured is .0035"
"New Drive Shaft"
"New O-ring"
"Gasket mating surface was faced .001 to remove any surface dings"
"Four bolt holes spot faced"
I have only one question, As this picture shows, do I need to be concerned with the "blemish"?
_________________ 17 years old
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sshulk Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008 Posts: 694 Location: Succasunna, NJ
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sshulk Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008 Posts: 694 Location: Succasunna, NJ
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Also, not sure what to expect, but the type4store is having a black friday sale, so Im hoping I can get to ordering some of the parts for my shortblock at a better price!. _________________ 17 years old
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Looks like a good deal! The blemish is not a problem. To be sure of everything....its worth while to disassemble and clean it.....check backlash...and end play.
If the inner surfaces have been lapped like noted....check the output ports and if necessary...mark with a sharpy and carefully clearance with a dremel and gray rubber abrasive wheel.
And....this is just me being anal.....but it looks like the studs on two nuts are in about,1.5 threads too far. It should not be an issue....because....those also look like the stock nuts....which if you notice carefully ....are made with threaded inserts in them. There is a name for these but ai cannot remember it.
They are technically a locking nut. The inner threaded insert distorts slightly and makes for a higher friction connector.
When you pull the pump apart for cleaning....ask the guy who sold it to you if you if he used locktite on the studs. If not.....measure the height of the studs...double nut and remove them one at a time....and locktite them.
Bear in mind that one stud of the four is longer and goes through the alignment cuff inside the pump.
Once you get it back together...locktite the nuts too.
If you have not seen my type 4 oil pump thread....just some good info.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699156&highlight=oil+pump
Ray |
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sshulk Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008 Posts: 694 Location: Succasunna, NJ
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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:58 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Im reading through Len Hoffmans write up on type 4 oil breathers,
https://newsite.hamheads.com/2016/12/10/type-4-crankcase-breathing-system-tests-analysis/
So Im curious, if I would want to use one of these systems.
Quote: |
In case you haven’t figured it out yet, H.A.M. recommends that no rocker chamber vents be used on Type 4 engines. I also see no need for a special breather can for a track car, though one with a drain line back to the chimney is fine. For a healthy wet-sump engine a simple breather can with a filter like those available from any speed shop will do. A single line with a 1/2″ or larger opening from the chimney top should be plenty for most street applications. I do not see the need for any more than a single 3/4″ hose from the chimney top for any N.A. application. That’s what worked in our specific application, which I believe to be about as demanding a scenario as a N.A. Type 4 engine is likely to be faced with. Sophisticated cans with oil-air seperation that vent to an aircleaner are worth consideration for street cars. Those systems will definitely benefit from the use of a single line from the chimney.
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Would it be worthy to use some sort of breather box? Obviously Not in the heads because Len Hoffman specifically noted not too. But maybe run a breather out of the chimney? Where Do I route tubes and such?
Do I run a breather to the carbs too?
Thanks, Max _________________ 17 years old
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tzepesh Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2003 Posts: 724 Location: Romania
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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:32 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Are your pump gears new? That pump drive tang looks perfect. Mine is chipped by years of use so I swapped to a type 1 pump, but fitment is bad (Schadek...). _________________ '74 1303S, L98B Viperngrun (extra glitter), German Look
'64 1200, Sea Blue, under restoration |
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sshulk Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008 Posts: 694 Location: Succasunna, NJ
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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:34 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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tzepesh wrote: |
Are your pump gears new? That pump drive tang looks perfect. Mine is chipped by years of use so I swapped to a type 1 pump, but fitment is bad (Schadek...). |
I believe that He used original gears, but Im not certain. _________________ 17 years old
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:16 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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sshulk wrote: |
Im reading through Len Hoffmans write up on type 4 oil breathers,
https://newsite.hamheads.com/2016/12/10/type-4-crankcase-breathing-system-tests-analysis/
So Im curious, if I would want to use one of these systems.
Quote: |
In case you haven’t figured it out yet, H.A.M. recommends that no rocker chamber vents be used on Type 4 engines. I also see no need for a special breather can for a track car, though one with a drain line back to the chimney is fine. For a healthy wet-sump engine a simple breather can with a filter like those available from any speed shop will do. A single line with a 1/2″ or larger opening from the chimney top should be plenty for most street applications. I do not see the need for any more than a single 3/4″ hose from the chimney top for any N.A. application. That’s what worked in our specific application, which I believe to be about as demanding a scenario as a N.A. Type 4 engine is likely to be faced with. Sophisticated cans with oil-air seperation that vent to an aircleaner are worth consideration for street cars. Those systems will definitely benefit from the use of a single line from the chimney.
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Would it be worthy to use some sort of breather box? Obviously Not in the heads because Len Hoffman specifically noted not too. But maybe run a breather out of the chimney? Where Do I route tubes and such?
Do I run a breather to the carbs too?
Thanks, Max |
Just for some extra background info.....in my opinion...and I have a lot of experience with type 4 engines as well.....especially driving them.....
Yes.....use a breather box. But what makes a breather box work well is airflow. The biggest problem I see....is that ftermarket breather boxes.....when used for non-racing or non offroad engines.....use hoses that are far too big.
If you are running balls out on a LARGE displacement engine and moving large amounts of blowby/crankcase gases....yeah....sure...large hoses may be in order.
However breather hoses to air cleaner housing produce relatively worthless vacuum levels....and low vacuum on large bore open hoses....mean lazy, lazy gas velocity and pull.
One would think that lazy, slow air flow would allow LESS oil to be dragged along with the air...right? No actually....depending on how the breather box is designed and whats in it.
To understand this....First take a look at the factory oil bath air cleaners. They have ALL of your air running through them at pretty high velocity.....and they actually pass very little excess oil through them. How its controlled is also how they filter for the most part.
The MOST filtration in an oil bath air cleaner is done as the inlet air makes a high speed sharp angle change from horizontal across the bath of oil.....to vertical going upward through the "coir" labyrinth (that synthetic straw inside. Heavy particles in the air cannot make this high speed turn and fall out into the oil bath. But the air picks up a lot of oil from the oil bath...right?
The fine particle filtration AND most of the oil control is done by the high speed air being sucked through that synthetic straw packing. As the air goes around all of that straw....its changing direction....rapidly....thousands of times before it reaches your carbs. Each high speed turn it makes....causes drops, mist and micro-droplets....to fall out from centrifugal force....along with fine dust.
Having zig zags or baffles or other types of labyrinth elements in a breather box does the same function.
The very best oil control breather box system I have seen....was the one that camd STOCK on the D-jet fuel injected type 4 engines.....and.....it uses rocker box vents.....but not in the same way that 99.9% of other people use them. They work in the OPPOSITE direction....and they require high velocity to operate.
On the D injected engine.....this is the flow path of the PCV system:
1. Clean air comes FROM a vent nipple on the air cleaner...through a 12mm hose
2. That hose goes to a 3 way splitter which has a flame trap grate inside
3. That splits to 12mm hoses to the nipple on each rocker box.
4. The air is PULLED THROUGH the rocker box....pulling an excess oil filling the rocker box and any excess gases (there will be little blow by in the rocker box).....into and through
5........ Through the push rod tubes.....into the case
6. Where it collects gases and oil vapors
7. And is PULLED upwards to the top of the case
8. To the "Z" baffel that is cast into the case.
NOTE: do you know what the "Z" baffel is? You can only see it when the case is split. It's a zig zag turn that is the entrance into the oil breather box of type 4 that is cast into the case. This is the first major high speed turn that dumps a LOT of oil vapor from the crankcase gases.
9. The gas is PULLED into the oil tower....has to change direction 90° again to enter the oil chimney baffel.....and has to change direction 90° twice more to get through the PCV valve.....
10. Where it is PULLED through a 12mm hose into the intake manifold.
This system is INCREDIBLY effect at oil control. It keeps the engine VERY clean. It uses high velocity turns to control oil vapor.
However.....did you note the term.... PULLED? it uses full manifold vacuum to create the velocity.....and PULLS air through the system....PULLS THROUGH the rocker boxes.....not out of them.
Your carb air cleaner enclosures will not produce enough vacuum to use this system.
However......a lot of us who work on D-jet engines with this system have found....that in reality.....big hoses are not needed. The PCV valve...as it cracks open to admit gases to the manifold.....only makes an opening of between 1mm and 3mm at most.
Because new PCV valves for this syztem are unobtanium.....we have found that installing a fixed orifice of 2-3mm max in the line...plumbed to the intake plenum running off the vacuum of all 4 cylinders........and just readjusting the fuel mixture to compensate for the small constant vacuum leak.....works perfectly.
You could probably do the same thing by running a 10-12mm hose...with a 2mm orifice....from the stock oil control baffel box .....to a balance pipe system between tje two carbs. Plumb the rest of the system like stock as I listed above. Clean air FROM thr air cleaner....THROUGH the rockers and engine and out the top oil chimney.
In general.....I would tend to agree with HAM....that.....on a CARBED engine....using rocker vents.....to pull vapor OUT of the engine... is not very useful. And right off the bat....just bypasses an already excellent oul control system that is already built into the engine.
And....we have also found that adding a copper mesh "chore boy" pot scrubber pad into the oil chimney chamber also makes oil control better because it mimics shat happens inside of the oil bath air cleaner.
Ray |
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dlearl476 Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2008 Posts: 82 Location: Las Vegas, NV. USA
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
veeweeman wrote: |
Wow ...thirteen pages and hasn't even begun putting the engine together
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And....its one of the smartest moves I have seen most VW newbies in general do...and about 100% of first time type 4 engine builders SHOULD DO!
With cost of type 4 parts...and the scarcity of good type 4 cores increasing...just jumping in and getting greasy and winging it,,,, like its a disposable type 1....would be pretty stupid.
He is asking questions...doing his research...and doing far more than 90% actually do,....by actually calling parts and service contacts until he gets an answer.
Thirteen pages of 1's and 0's is free....compared to cratering $5-7k worth of parts because you were in a hurry to "git-er done"...
Ray |
Couldn't agree more. I got a wild hair to put a converted TypeIV in my Beck and happened to find a 66K mile 914 1.8 with a set of new P&C and heads today for a smoking price and this thread has already proven invaluable and saved me a thousand bucks or so.
And I applaud SSH for knowing what he wants and being humble enough to ask for help (and ignore the naysayers). When I was his age, I was helping my brother rebuild a bugeye Sprite with a crescent wrench and a borrowed craftsman bar torque wrench and sand it down to bare metal and repaint it. |
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Bashr52 Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2006 Posts: 5666 Location: On an island in VA
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:01 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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I may have missed this somewhere, but why not put a type 1 oil pump in it? |
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sshulk Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008 Posts: 694 Location: Succasunna, NJ
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:13 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Bashr52 wrote: |
I may have missed this somewhere, but why not put a type 1 oil pump in it? |
Stolen from rays type 4 oil pump rebuild thread, but here
Quote: |
The Cons of using a new type 1 oil pump:
1. Depending on whose pump you buy it may have case to pump fit issues. The only fix for that is an O-ring or gasket modification at the inlet and outlet ports. That can add machine work and pitting effort.
2. You will have to do a little clearancing at the inlet and outlet ports of either pump or case or both. Not really a con actually but in needs to be done.
3. Unless you find the exact gear set size, you will generally end up with 26mm or larger gears. While the difference between 24mm and 26mm is only about 8%....its not always linear.
One could say with some truth that the oil pressure relief system in a type 4 should easily be able to handle an extra 8% of flow volume….that is not assured at all temps and with all oil weights. Your results may vary and you may need to tune for that.
4. there are some 24mm type 1 pumps…but they are made for beetles and will need to have the shaft boss clearanced to clear the cam bolts with aftermarket cams. Be sure the pump can handle that.
5. Unlike the type 4 pump…you have a cover plate on the outside. Make sure the plate your pump comes with is “quality”. It should be cast iron or steel preferably. And make sure that the plate has enough clearance between the pump and the fan housing. This is a problem on some.
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_________________ 17 years old
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Bashr52 Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2006 Posts: 5666 Location: On an island in VA
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:58 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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sshulk wrote: |
Bashr52 wrote: |
I may have missed this somewhere, but why not put a type 1 oil pump in it? |
Stolen from rays type 4 oil pump rebuild thread, but here
Quote: |
The Cons of using a new type 1 oil pump:
1. Depending on whose pump you buy it may have case to pump fit issues. The only fix for that is an O-ring or gasket modification at the inlet and outlet ports. That can add machine work and pitting effort.
2. You will have to do a little clearancing at the inlet and outlet ports of either pump or case or both. Not really a con actually but in needs to be done.
3. Unless you find the exact gear set size, you will generally end up with 26mm or larger gears. While the difference between 24mm and 26mm is only about 8%....its not always linear.
One could say with some truth that the oil pressure relief system in a type 4 should easily be able to handle an extra 8% of flow volume….that is not assured at all temps and with all oil weights. Your results may vary and you may need to tune for that.
4. there are some 24mm type 1 pumps…but they are made for beetles and will need to have the shaft boss clearanced to clear the cam bolts with aftermarket cams. Be sure the pump can handle that.
5. Unlike the type 4 pump…you have a cover plate on the outside. Make sure the plate your pump comes with is “quality”. It should be cast iron or steel preferably. And make sure that the plate has enough clearance between the pump and the fan housing. This is a problem on some.
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Gotcha. I just ask because on the "camper special" combo I built from a Raby kit, we went with a type 1 pump. No issues, works just fine. |
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danielzink Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2004 Posts: 282 Location: Lansing Michigan
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:56 am Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Been running a Type 1 oil pump in my T4 since 2000...
No issues. _________________ 1965 Notchback 2300cc Type4
Subaru Powered Rail
1915 Rail
www.danielzink.com |
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sshulk Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008 Posts: 694 Location: Succasunna, NJ
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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for the oil galley tapping, can i bring the case to a local machine shop for that or do i want to bring it to someone who knows type 4 engines? _________________ 17 years old
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calvinater Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2014 Posts: 3306 Location: 802
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Do it yourself _________________ "Albatross"! |
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sshulk Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008 Posts: 694 Location: Succasunna, NJ
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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calvinater wrote: |
Do it yourself |
whats required to do it myself? _________________ 17 years old
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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A normal machine shop should be able to do the job . If the case has an open location for a fuel pump on the #1 #2 side leave the bung behind the flywheel on that side of the case alone , it is a PITA because of the brass guide for the fuel pump rod .
Just make sure you give clear instructions to them on which plugs you want removed and tapped. |
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sshulk Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008 Posts: 694 Location: Succasunna, NJ
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: type 4 build thread |
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Wreck wrote: |
A normal machine shop should be able to do the job . If the case has an open location for a fuel pump on the #1 #2 side leave the bung behind the flywheel on that side of the case alone , it is a PITA because of the brass guide for the fuel pump rod .
Just make sure you give clear instructions to them on which plugs you want removed and tapped. |
i would like them all removed and tapped, i dont belive i have the fuel pump either, al though i will check tonight _________________ 17 years old
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