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Marand
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Hi I am hoping there are some 40 hp experts out there that can help answer a few questions about what the proper parts I am to be using on my late August 62 build date stale air 40 hp restoration for my 63 Deluxe bus.
The first question is which 6 volt generator stand should I be using a ribbed or non ribbed
The second is I have been told that a PICT carb is the date correct one, is this true
The third is Bus related and it is which air cleaner am I to use, and where does the vent line from the oil filler connect to the air cleaner
The fourth is, is this fuel pump the proper one
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If that fuel pump is the correct one, I am looking for an original German top section to complete the one I have or a complete German pump and I am willing to rebuild
The fifth question is to confirm I need the metal distributor vent line that has a loop in it up near the carburetor
The last question is about the fuel line from the fuel pump too the carburetor, is it suppose to have a portion of metal or is it to be all the black braided soft line
I hope some one can assist or at least have pics of a original 40 hp of the same time period
Thanks
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western auto
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

to my knowledge for that year, ribbed, 28 pict, breather connects to nipple on side of oil bath, theres a thread on bus air cleaners, I cant offer any definite answers to other questions
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Non-ribbed gen stand.

PIC is a carb with manual cable choke control. PICT being the "T" stands for electric choke. Last year for standard off the factory floor VWs being shipped to the N. American market with a PIC carb was 1960 model year.

Yes, that is the correct fuel pump.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Marand wrote:
late August 62 build date stale air 40 hp restoration for my 63 Deluxe bus.
The first question is which 6 volt generator stand should I be using a ribbed or non ribbed
The second is I have been told that a PICT carb is the date correct one, is this true
The third is Bus related and it is which air cleaner am I to use, and where does the vent line from the oil filler connect to the air cleaner
The fourth is, is this fuel pump the proper one
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If that fuel pump is the correct one, I am looking for an original German top section to complete the one I have or a complete German pump and I am willing to rebuild
The fifth question is to confirm I need the metal distributor vent line that has a loop in it up near the carburetor
The last question is about the fuel line from the fuel pump too the carburetor, is it suppose to have a portion of metal or is it to be all the black braided soft line


1. Not sure on generator stand
2. 28 PICT is correct
3. The 40hp air cleaner. If you have a vent line, I believe it should be on the right side of the oil bath as you face it
Example that has both a pre-heat connection and a vent line connection
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

4. Yes, that is the correct fuel pump.
If you need one I am sure there are tons for sale in the classifieds.
5. Yes, you should have a metal vacuum line. After doing some searching on here, I am pretty sure it should be the one with loop and not the one with simply a bend in it.
This:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

6. It looks like the metal line was added in April, 1962 so yes, you want that.
Source: Progressive Refinements, Volume 2, Fuel section
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Think the vacuum line would be the hump type, and of course like all metal lines steel plated with copper. That example above looks like it was converted to full circle by a DPO.

Spark plug cables should be blue colored, with white plastic cable to shroud clips.

Here is a low mileage 64 Beetle:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=60

Most of the engine parts the Beetle used were used by the Bus. So the above thread should be helpful.

Have you double checked the Mcode plate to see if the original engine was instead a 1500? That was an option in 1963 model year.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
5. Yes, you should have a metal vacuum line. After doing some searching on here, I am pretty sure it should be the one with loop and not the one with simply a bend in it.

To be more clear on this - I couldn't find when it was switched from the circle to the "hump" style in Progressive Refinements but there is another user on here that had a very original late 1963 1500cc Bus and it still had the circle style.

As far as I know 1500cc vs. 40hp would not matter for that part.

Someone else posted that the hump style was introduced in 1964 but he did not list the source of that information.
This
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1487879
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Maybe will chime in on where he found 1964 or if that was an educated guess.
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Marand
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Thank you all for the help.
All my questions were answered but one.
The question of which gen stand ribbed or non ribbed.
Hope someone with a Sept 62 build engine can assist with this.
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Marand wrote:
Thank you all for the help.
All my questions were answered but one.
The question of which gen stand ribbed or non ribbed.
Hope someone with a Sept 62 build engine can assist with this.


Read our first post again. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Here are some pics of the original 40hp engine that was previously in my 1961 bus (built in Nov. 1960). I now have a 1600 engine for more 'modern' driving.

I don't know if everything is 'correct', but it is a pretty original bus.
As found:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Cleaned up and getting ready for use. The muffler is new, obviously.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You won't see this detail, and this is the first one of these I have ever seen. I think this is a 40hp version of the oil fill strainer.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hope this helps.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Correct, it should be a round generator stand, with a tubeless oil filler like the one I described at the top of this forum page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=286915&start=440

There, of course, is an associated pulley tin that do not have a hole theough which the breather tube would otherwise have passed. I have an NOS one some where to illustrate, but it is correct for an Aug '62 engine. I used to have about five each of them, but I figured I was one of few who actually look to build true, correct (like down to date codes, etc.) engines. Good luck and hope everyone's info is getting you closer to your goal! Cheers.
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EverettB wrote:
...I went at it from both ends but going from the rear didn't seem to do anything, although I did spray some rust breaker in there...

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Lind
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

This engine is about 5 months newer than what is being requested here.

This is a picture of an apparently unmolested 40hp engine from january 1963. The original sales receipt shows the engine to be original, and it is in a low miles bus. I have other detailed photos of the engine. Thanks to Doug Denlinger for bringing the bus to OCTO a couple years back.

Note how the oil filler is turned for a clean look. Also, the generator stand is the later style.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Big props for running the 40hp. They are great little engines. I drive one all over the place, and it rocks. The stale air 40hp engines have a great vintage look too.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Lind wrote:
This engine is about 5 months newer than what is being requested here.

This is a picture of an apparently unmolested 40hp engine from january 1963. The original sales receipt shows the engine to be original, and it is in a low miles bus. I have other detailed photos of the engine. Thanks to Doug Denlinger for bringing the bus to OCTO a couple years back.

Note how the oil filler is turned for a clean look. Also, the generator stand is the later style.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Big props for running the 40hp. They are great little engines. I drive one all over the place, and it rocks. The stale air 40hp engines have a great vintage look too.



Very nice, Lind! I have most of my "period-specific" notes at work, which should include the approximate date/engine # when the switch from round to strengthened generator stands took place. If I find it, I'll update for clarity and adding to a more complete overview. I too love the look of a proper stale air 40hp engine! Badassery for sure.
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EverettB wrote:
...I went at it from both ends but going from the rear didn't seem to do anything, although I did spray some rust breaker in there...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

wouldn't it have fresh air heat?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

I just used tins off of a nice super original 40 engine number 6665545 march 62 and gen stand was ribbed, had breather connection on oil cap, and loop vacuum hose/ stale air boxes, I used the pieces to assemble 5081318 aug 60 with differences being smooth gen stand, non breather air cleaner and oil filler
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Hi Eric&Barb I saw your reply stating non ribbed, do you have any proof to support that because that contradicts Western Autos reply who stated he saw a ribbed on a March 62 40 hp
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Marand wrote:
Hi Eric&Barb I saw your reply stating non ribbed, do you have any proof to support that because that contradicts Western Autos reply who stated he saw a ribbed on a March 62 40 hp


Well shoot, meant to type ribbed, but must of mistyped non-ribbed. Embarassed

Pretty sure the non-ribbed ended sometime in 1961 model year.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

Ok, so it unanimous on the gen stand, as far as I could find, not all of these questions had been answered in the past on this site so I hope this will help future 40 hp purists.
I want to thank you all for the input
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

If anyone finds anything more definitive on the round-to-ribbed generator stand transition, like PR references or other sources, I would appreciate it to add to my resources.

If you look the manuals, which, of course, are not always the most accurate resources, the non-ribbed or round generator stand was still shown in the February as well as October '62 manuals, while the February '63 shows the ribbed version among others changes, like fresh air, etc:

Feb '62:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/mighetto/62t2_p66p67.jpg
Oct' '62:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/oct62bus/page66.jpg
Feb '63: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/feb63bus/page66.jpg

Adding more confusion and contradiction, I have a very original engine, an April '62 (#6723517, I believe) that had the round generator stand. So, where do we draw the line? Stands are interchangeable and could have been replaced on mine with an available round one, or the March '62 described above could have replaced a broken round type.

Like you guys, I just want a straight answer, something black and white, saying "at this time or engine #, VW started its transition, while using existing resources [of round bubbas] until depleted." Given nothing concrete, I tend to rely on the manuals or whatever is available. If anyone finds anything out like a PR reference or bulletin or what, post it! Cheers, guys.


EDIT: Another note on the Manuals' (in)accuracies: even the images in the Oct '62 still show the breather hose running from oil cleaner intake (earlier), rather than the reservoir (later), which transition in late February '62 according to PR. Ahh, I need clarity and ritalin!
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...I went at it from both ends but going from the rear didn't seem to do anything, although I did spray some rust breaker in there...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

I tried to look up the generator stand change a little while ago and couldn't find a reference in Progressive Refinements but it's possible I missed it.

The owner's manuals sort of suck for very specific engine details as they often re-used earlier photos and even retouched them as needed to show certain changes but not others.

62DoKaGuy wrote:
EDIT: Another note on the Manuals' (in)accuracies: even the images in the Oct '62 still show the breather hose running from oil cleaner intake (earlier), rather than the reservoir (later), which transition in late February '62 according to PR. Ahh, I need clarity and ritalin!

I noticed that too but I can't recall ever seeing an air cleaner like that in person.
I wonder if it was short-lived.
Reference pic - Notice the breather hose connects behind the pre-heat intake tube:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:17 am    Post subject: Re: 40 hp evolution Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
I tried to look up the generator stand change a little while ago and couldn't find a reference in Progressive Refinements but it's possible I missed it.

The owner's manuals sort of suck for very specific engine details as they often re-used earlier photos and even retouched them as needed to show certain changes but not others.

62DoKaGuy wrote:
EDIT: Another note on the Manuals' (in)accuracies: even the images in the Oct '62 still show the breather hose running from oil cleaner intake (earlier), rather than the reservoir (later), which transition in late February '62 according to PR. Ahh, I need clarity and ritalin!

I noticed that too but I can't recall ever seeing an air cleaner like that in person.
I wonder if it was short-lived.
Reference pic - Notice the breather hose connects behind the pre-heat intake tube:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So far as I can recall, that air cleaner setup was short lived, then the switch to reservoir stub out in Feb '62. PR, Vol. I, M-46, says 08 JUN '61 started the air intake mount. I can't remember from my oil cleaner hoarding days any actual date codes for that version. Between Mann and Knecht, the date codes are spotted, with extant codes being in several different spots, depending on year/model.

Again, if all I have are manuals and other less-reliable sources, they are still our only sources for narrowing it down to specific details for a truly correct engine...well, unless we also include the transitional period between variations, where supplies at the factory still included older versions...it's a fun and interested process of determining originality and correctness, but damn I seem to always been near a turning point and have to deal with uncertainties...
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EverettB wrote:
...I went at it from both ends but going from the rear didn't seem to do anything, although I did spray some rust breaker in there...

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4/59 Single Cab
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