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KindaHippyish Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:36 pm Post subject: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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I've been doing quite a bit of rehab to the van the past few months. I've replaced just about every part of the ignition system, new timing and serpentine belts, water pump, replaced the shocks with the Fox units from GW, lifted it an inch, put on a set of Audi wheels and new tires (225/65/16), new oil and Mann filter, etc.
I started driving it on a more regular basis this past weekend, and it feels underpowered, especially going up any incline. I live in a neighborhood with some elevation changes, and I have to drop down to first to get up one incline, and have to attack a much lesser hill aggressively to stay in second, which still barely makes it up in second gear.
This can't be normal, right? I know the larger diameter tires will slow rotation down a bit, but this seems too significant of a change for that. The idle is a little rough, but driving is smooth. There aren't any other symptoms to speak of. I replaced the O2 sensor, catalytic converter and the air intake temperature sensor to go above and beyond to get rid of a CEL. The CEL went away, but the idle is still a little rough.
Seems like the idle changed to being a bit rougher after I replaced a few ignition pieces (rotor, cap, plugs, wires and coil).
I am going to start putting the older ignition parts back on one at a time and do a compression test to start figuring this out, but wanted to check with you folks here to make sure it's not just "well, it's a slow van to start with..."
Here is a street view link to the hill I have to drop to first gear to get up:
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3771404,-97.919098...312!8i6656
Here is another incline where I have to hit it pretty hard to just stay in second gear:
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.378732,-97.9247713...312!8i6656
Hopefully, those links work!
Any help/guidance is much appreciated!
If this is somehow the new norm for the van, then you might be seeing a turbo build in the future. I've done a couple in the past on other NA engines and have a decent idea of how I would tackle the job on the Eurovan. _________________ 1995 Eurovan Camper 5SPD
1991 Vanagon GL 4SPD Subaru DOHC EJ25 - SOLD
1984 Vanagon Wolfsburg 4SPD 1.8 I4 - Traded Away
1986 Vanagon GL Syncro 2.1L WBX 4SPD - RIP |
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Da TOW'D Samba Member
Joined: December 25, 2005 Posts: 1321 Location: Bella Coma Canada
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Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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like you say do a compression test first great starting point
I have a vacuum gauge on my dash and it tells me how the engine is at all times. I try to keep above 10"hg most of the time
have fun _________________ '57 type 1 Blackberry
'58 SC Ruf
'62 type 3 Notch
'92 Eurovan Willy DD
and NUTS |
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IdeaNerd Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2016 Posts: 597 Location: Central California
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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That first Street View link doesn't look like a "first gear hill" to me, so perhaps you do have some engine issues.
That said, though I can't speak to the engine possibilities much, I do have a lot of experience driving our EV in steep mountain terrain, and will share a few things I've learned along the way, just in case they might be helpful:
One thing I have noticed (which at one point was so strong symptom-wise that I mistook it for transmission trouble) is that there seems to be a significant torque-related "low climbing power" place at the bottom of second gear, when the van is still going too fast to shift down into first. Under 2K RPM and around 20-25 MPH, if memory serves. If you get stuck in that "in between" gearing place and you're climbing a steep hill, the lack of torque can be kind of shocking. Particularly once you're used to how well these vans climb otherwise (e.g. flying up a hill at 70 MPH that a Vanagon or Bus would not even hit 50 MPH on).
What works for me in that circumstance: slowing the van down to 20 MPH or so (I think the first-gear downshift lockout is maybe 21-22 MPH? (again, that's just from memory off the top of my head)), force it into 1st via the gear selector, and keep it there, winding up the RPMs to what might otherwise feel too high (say ~5K?). I remember @jjvincent talking about how these VR6 motors don't mind running at fairly high RPM and can do so comfortably for quite some time, and this approach plays into that.
It sounds like you may already have this technique down pat though.
I also find that using the gear selector to keep it in a lower gear (3rd, 2nd) is pretty much mandatory in mountain driving (more so than some other vehicles). In general, the AT wants to run too tall, and/or ends up shifting back and forth a LOT.
I'm not sure any of this applies to your situation, but I'm sharing it in case it might be helpful to you, or to others running into unexpected performance issues in steep mountain driving.
If not, do please share what you learn on that turbo build!
Last edited by IdeaNerd on Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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wildenbeast Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2008 Posts: 680 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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I have the same year van with a 5 speed manual and 16" wheels with 235/60 tires. It is definitely slower than a 1997+ Eurovan and way slower than a 2001+ Eurovan. It is slightly faster than a Vanagon Syncro with a 2.3 GoWesty engine and Vanistan exhaust. I say this because it looks like you're coming from owning several Vanagons.
However, you should not be shifting into 1st for any hill. I typically drive from 5400' elevation over some passes that are 11,000' elevation. I typically have to shift down to 3rd for the major passes but have probably only shifted into 2nd once or twice ever. At higher CO elevations, I am driving with way less HP than you would be in TX.
I would do a compression check and also check your timing. My van slipped a tooth when I first got it and the timing of course was way off. You might want to replace your idle control valve but I doubt that is affecting your hill climbing. I would probably doing a cooling system flush and check the air filter as well to make sure that the radiator or another system isn't blocked somewhere. Anyway, that's my two cents... _________________ - Bill, '93 Eurovan Syncro Weekender (2.5 manual ACU) |
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KindaHippyish Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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Thanks for the responses.
@wildenbeast that is what I was figuring with these vans going through mountain passes. I know right now there is no way this van would be going up a mountain with how it is struggling going up these comparably minor hills.
I'll check the timing, but I figured the timing would be fine considering the belt has been done within the last 500 miles or so, but I guess that would just be the crank and cam timed up. I have been wondering if when I replaced the rotor and distributor cap if I knocked the ignition timing off somehow. I'll probably look at that first.
It's a relief to know that these 2.5L vans can get through mountain passes in 3rd for the most part because we have family in CO and want to take the van to get there.
@IdeaNerd I've already started doing some research on the turbo idea. We'll see how things unfold! _________________ 1995 Eurovan Camper 5SPD
1991 Vanagon GL 4SPD Subaru DOHC EJ25 - SOLD
1984 Vanagon Wolfsburg 4SPD 1.8 I4 - Traded Away
1986 Vanagon GL Syncro 2.1L WBX 4SPD - RIP |
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KindaHippyish Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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I checked out some things today, and from what I can tell the cam gear mark looks to be off from where it should be. Everything else is lined up when at TDC.
The crank pulley is lined up to the mark on the timing belt cover, and I could also see the timing mark (0) on the flywheel through the bell housing.
I had a shop do the timing belt. So I am not 100% sure if there is a simple way to remove tension from the timing belt to adjust it by a tooth or two or if that is even what needs to be done.
Here's the timing mark on the cam gear:
And here is the rotor pointed toward the timing mark on the distributor:
Anyone have any thoughts on these findings? _________________ 1995 Eurovan Camper 5SPD
1991 Vanagon GL 4SPD Subaru DOHC EJ25 - SOLD
1984 Vanagon Wolfsburg 4SPD 1.8 I4 - Traded Away
1986 Vanagon GL Syncro 2.1L WBX 4SPD - RIP |
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KindaHippyish Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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Wanted to bump this up to see if anyone might chime in before I take this to the shop that did the timing belt to get the cam pulley put into its correct position. _________________ 1995 Eurovan Camper 5SPD
1991 Vanagon GL 4SPD Subaru DOHC EJ25 - SOLD
1984 Vanagon Wolfsburg 4SPD 1.8 I4 - Traded Away
1986 Vanagon GL Syncro 2.1L WBX 4SPD - RIP |
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KindaHippyish Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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One more bump for input before I call the shop. _________________ 1995 Eurovan Camper 5SPD
1991 Vanagon GL 4SPD Subaru DOHC EJ25 - SOLD
1984 Vanagon Wolfsburg 4SPD 1.8 I4 - Traded Away
1986 Vanagon GL Syncro 2.1L WBX 4SPD - RIP |
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Da TOW'D Samba Member
Joined: December 25, 2005 Posts: 1321 Location: Bella Coma Canada
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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How did the compression test go? _________________ '57 type 1 Blackberry
'58 SC Ruf
'62 type 3 Notch
'92 Eurovan Willy DD
and NUTS |
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DenverB Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012 Posts: 704 Location: Denver, Colorado
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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My $.02:
You're pushing a lot more unsprung weight with 16"s.
We see clients come in with 16s on their 5-cyls often and they always feel more sluggish than ones with 15" wheels on them -- especially in colorado. You're already dealing with a car that doesn't want to do much more than 60 going up Eisenhower.
frankly, based on what you've posted about the work you've done, that's where I would begin.
a few things we've also dealt with: transmission may be hanging up on sticky valves? is your distributor where it should be (is it the right one?)
You're welcome to give us a call and have our mechanic look at it though. _________________ -------
'77 Transporter/camper (Bussy - Reef Blue/Pastel White)
'67 bug (Santos - VW Blue)
'84 Vanagon Westfalia (Pink Flamingo - Pastel White/Pink)
'88 Vanagon GL Westfalia (Frankie Says - Wolfram Gray)
'02 Eurovan Weekender (Green Apple)
'95-'03 Eurovan full campers and weekenders (rental fleet)
'84 -'91 Vanagon full campers and weekenders (rental fleet)
'72 Porsche 914 (Greta - RIP)
www.RockyMountainCampervans.com |
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DenverB Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012 Posts: 704 Location: Denver, Colorado
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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Just saw you are in austin, seeing our mechanic might not work.
also: are you using premium gasoline? _________________ -------
'77 Transporter/camper (Bussy - Reef Blue/Pastel White)
'67 bug (Santos - VW Blue)
'84 Vanagon Westfalia (Pink Flamingo - Pastel White/Pink)
'88 Vanagon GL Westfalia (Frankie Says - Wolfram Gray)
'02 Eurovan Weekender (Green Apple)
'95-'03 Eurovan full campers and weekenders (rental fleet)
'84 -'91 Vanagon full campers and weekenders (rental fleet)
'72 Porsche 914 (Greta - RIP)
www.RockyMountainCampervans.com |
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DenverB Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2012 Posts: 704 Location: Denver, Colorado
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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One last thing I thought of, and keep in mind all of this is subjective and I have no actual data to back this up.
I notice that my 95s behave slower when I switch over from our regular summer tires to studded snow tires which are considerably heavier. And thats state with 15 inch wheels _________________ -------
'77 Transporter/camper (Bussy - Reef Blue/Pastel White)
'67 bug (Santos - VW Blue)
'84 Vanagon Westfalia (Pink Flamingo - Pastel White/Pink)
'88 Vanagon GL Westfalia (Frankie Says - Wolfram Gray)
'02 Eurovan Weekender (Green Apple)
'95-'03 Eurovan full campers and weekenders (rental fleet)
'84 -'91 Vanagon full campers and weekenders (rental fleet)
'72 Porsche 914 (Greta - RIP)
www.RockyMountainCampervans.com |
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KindaHippyish Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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If I were in the Denver area, I would bring my van in in no time! It's hard enough finding someone here in the Austin area to get to take anything on regarding Eurovans or Vanagons.
Da TOW'D, I haven't performed the compression check yet since I saw what looked to be the camshaft timing to be off by a couple of teeth. I feel like that is the first thing I need to get straightened out. Then, I will make sure ignition timing is where is should be, 6° BTDC. After those items are checked off, then I will do the compression check.
Thanks for the input everyone. I'll check in to let you know how things go. _________________ 1995 Eurovan Camper 5SPD
1991 Vanagon GL 4SPD Subaru DOHC EJ25 - SOLD
1984 Vanagon Wolfsburg 4SPD 1.8 I4 - Traded Away
1986 Vanagon GL Syncro 2.1L WBX 4SPD - RIP |
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KindaHippyish Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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Just got my van back from the shop. They adjusted the ignition and cleaned the throttle body. They also checked the timing belt install and said it was good, which I don't know if I believe with the timing mark on the camshaft gear being off.
The ignition timing seems to have paid off though because it has a lot more power.
However, on my trip to the shop the transmission gate (the thing that let's you go into reverse when you push down on the shift lever) decided to give out. So I can now just go right into reverse at any time. I can push down and pull up on the lever, and it doesn't make any difference. _________________ 1995 Eurovan Camper 5SPD
1991 Vanagon GL 4SPD Subaru DOHC EJ25 - SOLD
1984 Vanagon Wolfsburg 4SPD 1.8 I4 - Traded Away
1986 Vanagon GL Syncro 2.1L WBX 4SPD - RIP |
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Joshwa Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2015 Posts: 810 Location: North Seattle WA
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KindaHippyish Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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Thanks a ton for the diagram. I will look more into it.
The spring pressure is completely gone. I can press down on the lever and stays there or I can lift it and it stays. In fact, I can press the lever down quite a ways, and it literally feels like I have installed a short shifter all of a sudden. Hahaha!
I'm really considering getting to the timing belt to adjust the camshaft the two or so teeth it looks to be off. So wish me luck with that. _________________ 1995 Eurovan Camper 5SPD
1991 Vanagon GL 4SPD Subaru DOHC EJ25 - SOLD
1984 Vanagon Wolfsburg 4SPD 1.8 I4 - Traded Away
1986 Vanagon GL Syncro 2.1L WBX 4SPD - RIP |
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KindaHippyish Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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Well, I was able to get the timing belt off of the camshaft to turn it. I turned the camshaft until the timing mark was where it was supposed to be. Put the timing belt back on and rotated the engine by hand a couple of times to double check timing marks on the crank, cam and flywheel. Started the engine and put a timing light to the ignition timing mark on the flywheel, and adjusted the distributor accordingly.
I ended up rotating the camshaft a good 10 degrees or so. Definitely more than just a tooth or two.
The van is now idling better, albeit still a bit rough, but the biggest improvement is the power delivery. It feels like it should now. I took it up a couple of hills in the neighborhood and actually upshifted from 2nd to 3rd up one of them!
But now there is a ticking sound coming from the engine, of course. I still need to do a compression check. Here's a quick video of the sound I'm referring to:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sRlvL-UCCNAIHgiZavFGb2izXFTAIZG0
Also, I took a look at the shifter issue, and it looks like the culprit is 13 from the above diagram. I do not see or feel anything in the hole that bearing pin slides into. I can freely pull down and push up the rod assembly (10, 11). So I will get one of those ordered to put in. _________________ 1995 Eurovan Camper 5SPD
1991 Vanagon GL 4SPD Subaru DOHC EJ25 - SOLD
1984 Vanagon Wolfsburg 4SPD 1.8 I4 - Traded Away
1986 Vanagon GL Syncro 2.1L WBX 4SPD - RIP |
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KindaHippyish Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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I finally did the compression test.
Here are the numbers:
#1 - 220 psi
#2 - 230 psi
#3 - 230 psi
#4 - 235 psi
#5 - 220 psi
Something to note, when I pulled the spark plugs #1 and #2 were significantly hotter than the other three. _________________ 1995 Eurovan Camper 5SPD
1991 Vanagon GL 4SPD Subaru DOHC EJ25 - SOLD
1984 Vanagon Wolfsburg 4SPD 1.8 I4 - Traded Away
1986 Vanagon GL Syncro 2.1L WBX 4SPD - RIP |
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Da TOW'D Samba Member
Joined: December 25, 2005 Posts: 1321 Location: Bella Coma Canada
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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compression looks "good"
do you have a vacuum gauge you can hook up to the intake manifold?
vacuum should read between 17-22 in hg @ 1000rpm at sea level _________________ '57 type 1 Blackberry
'58 SC Ruf
'62 type 3 Notch
'92 Eurovan Willy DD
and NUTS |
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KindaHippyish Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Possible Loss of Power / Going Up Inclines Especially |
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No, I don't have a vacuum gauge, but will look into getting one. I'm sure I will get another car at some point with CIS, and I imagine that would be very helpful.
What would a vacuum gauge hooked up to the intake manifold be able to tell me? Apologies if that is a silly question.
I took off the oil pan to take a look at the bottom end. I know that won't tell me much without actually taking off the rod caps and checking the bearings, but I figured I could at least look for "glitter" in the pan, discoloration of the rods, rod play, etc. There was a small leak from the pan anyways. So it needed to be dropped regardless.
Next, I am going to take the valve cover off to take a look at the top of the valvetrain. _________________ 1995 Eurovan Camper 5SPD
1991 Vanagon GL 4SPD Subaru DOHC EJ25 - SOLD
1984 Vanagon Wolfsburg 4SPD 1.8 I4 - Traded Away
1986 Vanagon GL Syncro 2.1L WBX 4SPD - RIP |
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