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Dark Earth
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
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 Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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| greggl4321 wrote: |
Can someone answer the questions
Are stock arms in the rear good?
Do the components and the arms break less when they are smaller?
I've heard it mentioned that stuff breaks more with the 3x3...
How much travel do 1" over arms get?
Ive heard bad things about notching the spring plate, please inform me as to why this is. |
| dustymojave wrote: |
3x3 arms are NOT weaker than stock arms. Thye are designed for offroad use as compared to the street use the stock ones are designed for. For off road use, the stock arms need to be reinforced.
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My Build: '69 Baja - Dark Earth Version
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dirtkeeper
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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| greggl4321 wrote: |
Can someone answer the questions
Are stock arms in the rear good?
Do the components and the arms break less when they are smaller?
I've heard it mentioned that stuff breaks more with the 3x3...
How much travel do 1" over arms get?
Ive heard bad things about notching the spring plate, please inform me as to why this is. |
Really Greg we have answered most your questions
Are stock rear arms good? Yes , as we have said you will be fine with a stock bug /arms. Or for heavy use you can reinforce them as dusty said. I had a somewhat reinforced one break on me once but that was after over 20 years of mild off-road use. If you intend to catch a lot of air often then ya for sure the stock ones will probably fail at some point. ‘Occasionally hitting a dirt path” ?? As you mentioned your intention, I wouldn’t bother.
Stuff may break more with 3x3’s but that’s probably because now you have more travel which encourages you to go faster and higher causing more wear and stress on everything. Or because the whole suspension wasn’t upgraded properly to handle the additional travel and dynamics provided by the longer arms.
There are several factors that contribute to suspension travel, the longer arms being just one factor. There is no simple answer to that question besides building it and seeing what you come up with. Without other modifications longer arms may not provide any additional travel.
If you do a search or read up on others who have done it you will probably find some pictures of broken spring plates. Notching make the spring plates smaller thus weaker. I have had about 1/2” cut out of mine for many years and for the last 6 years hav nearly an inch cut out of them , mine are upgraded ones from SAW (Sway -A-Way) So stronger than stock probably. I notched them to take advantage of empi type 2 race cv’s. I determined the maximum downward travel of the. Wheel/hub by experimenting to see when the cv would start to bind because it had reached its maximum angle of operation, then I actually had to weld metal back onto the notch ( because I had gone too far) so that the springplate would hit the stop before the cv binded (which would cause failure). THEN I had to confirm that my shocks were long enough to move freely though the new longer travel. On top of that each side of my car was slightly different due to my particular cars’ having bent parts or misalignments unique to my car. One side of my car has about a 1/2” more travel then the other side. Your results may differ. With stock cv joints you may not be able to notch much before you hit the the maximum angle of the cv’s. |
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greggl4321
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2017
Posts: 276
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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I think dusty may be wrong about them being stronger.
The longer the length the more leverage increases as I was hearing in some thread somewhere, iirc. Not travel causing the damage. However, I am not certain either way and wanted to corroborate.
My intended use is mostly streets, but with a potential to scoot.
The only other way I can describe it is l want it to be like a moonshine running car. It's analogous in the sense that it won't be utilizing it's full potential 100% of the time but it certainly can.
Looking to a cheap car that really has potential and can scoot.
Ive mentioned what my intended use is for, everybody seems to conflate it. perhaps it's best said that I want the best possible budget suspension for offroad despite driving mostly street.[ |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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| greggl4321 wrote: |
I think dusty may be wrong about them being stronger.
The longer the length the more leverage increases as I was hearing in some thread somewhere, iirc. Not travel causing the damage. However, I am not certain either way and wanted to corroborate. Same thing with the spring plate adjustment. Ive heard it introduces pitfalls |
Greg,
The 3x3 arms are definetly stronger than stock arms. You are correct that leverage is increased (hence the larger torsion bars or coil over conversions), but what you may not realize is that they are made completely differently, so it’s apples to oranges. Every aftermarket arm you get is stronger than the stock ones. It has to due with the geometry of the materials used. In all honesty the strength of the stock arms is surprisingly good, but if you abuse them they can bend. Reinforcing stock arms is easy by welding on a few plates. The Mackinac bridge may be miles longer than a highway overpass, but that doesn’t make it weaker than the mighty Mac. 
As for the spring plates, notching will weaken them, but isn’t nescesarily bad. Hundreds of Baja bugs are running them. I wouldn’t worry one bit about notching factory dual spring plates if only notching the inner plate. The stock single plates I have seen crack if notched and driven the piss out of. Heavy duty aftermarket plates are pretty safe to notch...I wouldn’t race them, but I wouldn’t be afraid to bash them around on the weekend if ya know what I mean. It all depends how much notching is done, and geometry. If you leave a sharp corner, it is likely to crack from the stress concentration factor. A generous radius greatly improves things.
By the way....who told you the longer arms are weaker than stock??? I have never heard that one...ever...nor does it make a lick of sense if you look at how they are constructed. Very stout construction indeed. I would be inclined not to take advice from that individual very seriously if they are throwing around junk like that.
Also, Dusty knows his stuff. Not only did he race off road VWs,, but he was a tech inspector for races and is an extreamly knowledgeable source around these forums. I suggest you take him seriously if I were you.
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021
Last edited by Vanapplebomb on Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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tobiism
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2004
Posts: 502
Location: Chandler AZ
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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| greggl4321 wrote: |
I think dusty may be wrong about them being stronger.
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Ho-lee crap.
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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cbeck
Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014
Posts: 2495
Location: high ridge, mo
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Dark Earth
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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I think greggl4321 is more about getting attention and less about building a baja bug. He doesn't have a baja bug and has no intentions of getting a baja bug. He just wants to talk about them incessantly posting anything that pops into his head at any given moment. To defiantly reject any advice that anybody gives him is only to get a reaction and more attention. To say dustymojave is wrong only proves that this isn't about building a baja bug but just to annoy people into posting more and more.
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My Build: '69 Baja - Dark Earth Version
~I'm almost done. I just lack finishing up.~ |
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heywebonya
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2010
Posts: 823
Location: Portage, MI
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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Gregg
I cannot understand how you consistently troll the Samba and refuse to listen to experts. Claiming " I heard..." or some other wacky ideas (like trying to replace a tunnel) and ignoring several experienced builders and inspectors.
Your posts are interesting like a car wreck, but nothing every is resolved.
-Jeff
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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The 1" longer trailing arms MAINLY allow the use of 31 or 32" tires.
In stock form you put on a 31" tire and the tire is touching the tube where the torsion bar sticks out in the spring plate, AND when fully compressed the tire rubs the front side of the inner fender well. 1" longer solves both these problems and lets you put the big tires on without modifying much else.
There ARE other ways to do it with stock trailing arms but IMO it's not better or easier.
It's also been theorized that CV joints tend to break the cage when tr4ansitioning through 0 degrees with force on them. If the trailing arms are extended back just a little the CV's will never be at exactly 0 degrees and this MAY be a good thing.
Do you need longer axles? probably not, but that would be a question for whoever made the trailing arms and what kind of CV's and transmission you end up with. Stock CV max angle is 13 degrees. |
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greggl4321
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2017
Posts: 276
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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Sorry dusty, I may be confused on something.
Modok,
What doesn't need to need to be changed with the 1" over arms vs the 3x3?
I read like 17+ inches of travel are possible with 1" over arms.
Feedback please ? |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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[quote="greggl4321"]Can someone answer the questions[quote]
Gregg...Shut up!
If I keep trying to lead the horse (you) to water, I'm gonna wind up drowning the damned horse before he learns to drink!
I'm done with you.
Goodbye.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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| greggl4321 wrote: |
Sorry dusty, I may be confused on something.
Modok,
What doesn't need to need to be changed with the 1" over arms vs the 3x3?
I read like 17+ inches of travel are possible with 1" over arms.
Feedback please ? |
Either way, everything suspension related needs to be changed. VW designed the stock components to be exactly enough for stock application. Change anything and the whole system has to follow. You can’t do some here and nothing there. Just the nature of the beast.
Greg, this isn’t a rock crawling truck/Jeep. Do you realize how much travel 17” is for a vehicle weighing ~2000lbs? I think you need a reality check here man.
To actually use 17” you pretty much need to be a professional race driver...or it’s just a waste of time and money. With your 4000 buck budget, I’m sorry, but 17” is not in your budget when you consider the cost of upgrading everything to match. You could drop 4 grand alone just on suspension if 17” is your goal...and then what about the rest of the car??? 4 grand is very reasonable for a Baja bug modified for weekend off road fun, and you will have a blast.
Your talking class 5 unlimited Baja bug stuff, but you need to be thinking more like class 11 style Baja bug for your budget and skill level.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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greggl4321
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2017
Posts: 276
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| greggl4321 wrote: |
Sorry dusty, I may be confused on something.
Modok,
What doesn't need to need to be changed with the 1" over arms vs the 3x3?
I read like 17+ inches of travel are possible with 1" over arms.
Feedback please ? |
Either way, everything suspension related needs to be changed. VW designed the stock components to be exactly enough for stock application. Change anything and the whole system has to follow. You can’t do some here and nothing there. Just the nature of the beast.
Greg, this isn’t a rock crawling truck/Jeep. Do you realize how much travel 17” is for a vehicle weighing ~2000lbs? I think you need a reality check here man.
To actually use 17” you pretty much need to be a professional race driver...or it’s just a waste of time and money. With your 4000 buck budget, I’m sorry, but 17” is not in your budget when you consider the cost of upgrading everything to match. You could drop 4 grand alone just on suspension if 17” is your goal...and then what about the rest of the car??? 4 grand is very reasonable for a Baja bug modified for weekend off road fun, and you will have a blast.
Your talking class 5 unlimited Baja bug stuff, but you need to be thinking more like class 11 style Baja bug for your budget and skill level. |
4 grand is more than enough to upgrade the suspension.
That's what I plan on the whole gig, period.
A car here recently sold that had a king link front and 3x3 rear for 800, or less! It was a chopped top, which is bad to buy according to a trusted friend, but couldn't a body have been be affixed to the pan chassis? Or would the 3x3 need redoing.
I'll likely buy a Baja with already modified suspension front or rear suspension and then work on the other end.
I'm exuberant to hear of how much fun I'll be having in a basic Baja bug.
Can't wait
So why do 3x3 arms get less travel than 1" over arms? I must be missing something
If just stock arms are used how would you personally mod them?
I'd be happy with around 7-10 inches of travel. And think it's possible. |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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| Quote: |
| 4 grand is more than enough to upgrade the suspension. |
Now he's giving out advice. 
| Quote: |
| So why do 3x3 arms get less travel than 1" over arms? I must be missing something |
Yup. You are missing something.
The builder of the 3 x 3 that gets less than the race +1 suspension simply does not know how to build it to maximize travel. And likely does not have the $$ to throw into it.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Fenix
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2016
Posts: 468
Location: St Louis
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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| greggl4321 wrote: |
I think dusty may be wrong about them being stronger.
Looking to a cheap car that really has potential and can scoot.
[ |
First off: Insulting one of the most the most technically experienced contributes on here...Smart!
Second: Once again an Oxymoronic statement when talking about a 60 yr old vehicle platform.
The reason it seams like we are conflating all of your ideas is because you have Campaign dreams on a rain-water budget. We are trying to be realists and help you understand what could work for your budget. But once again like most of the individuals your age and region you cannot understand being told you cant have something without putting in the work/funds to do it.
Get a Car first, then get back to us with the questions after you see what you have to work with and what the parts/skills needed to fabricate what you want will be. If you are not willing to take advise from experienced builders/fabricators and are not willing to learn to wrench/weld/cut, grind, etc on it yourself then go back and buy a cheep early 2000's Honda or Toyota. Still will be far more economical for a daily driver. Even in in LA they are under $2000.
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/cto/d/2004-honda-civic-registered/6441094717.html
And considering my best friend still drive an identical car as a daily driver...even with 500K+ miles with out any mechanical issues other than replacing the clutch twice now I believe, it will last you well into your years of living out of it.
If you move up to 3K man you can get some pearls. I mean this one doesn't even have 90K miles on it. https://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/cto/d/honda-civic-only-90k-miles/6444501780.html
Shoot, I would have sold you my 03 4.7 ltr quad cab ram for $2,500. It had 200K miles and not a single issue. It had a 3" Dominator Lift kit with 265-70-17 tires and still only had of total articulation of 10" front and 12" rear...I had no problem doing going anywhere I wanted or at what I felt was a safe speed for the terrain. By the way that kit was $8,900, as a bolt on kit and took two of us 6 hours to install. By the way the big ticket item roughly 1/2 the cost of the kit was the same King Shocks that most of the long travel Bajas and Rails use. |
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greggl4321
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2017
Posts: 276
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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what about a bugyzla conversion  |
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heywebonya
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2010
Posts: 823
Location: Portage, MI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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Gregg, What color is your bug? What year? How do you like the seats?
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If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy! |
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veeweeman
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2009
Posts: 940
Location: New Port Richey, FL
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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Fenix
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2016
Posts: 468
Location: St Louis
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Rear IRS Suspension options |
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| greggl4321 wrote: |
I think dusty may be wrong about them being stronger.
The longer the length the more leverage increases as I was hearing in some thread somewhere, iirc. Not travel causing the damage. However, I am not certain either way and wanted to corroborate.
[ |
Stock arms are two pieces of stamped mild steel, spot-welded every 1-1.5 inches along the perimeter. 3x3's are fully tig welded chromoly tubing and plate steel. You could have a 12"x12" offset and still be stronger than stock just based on the flexmodulous of the materials and the strength of the construction/bonding. Again, real-world experience and an understanding of the materials and manufacturing processes that only owning, building, and modifying first hand can teach you. Unless you want to get the 4-6 years of mechanical engineering degree and then another 3-5 years of manufacturing experience. |
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