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Cold Start Valve compatibility question.
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Xevin Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

Can a Type 3 CSV (311 906 171 B ) Be used in a late bay?
Guilty of not searching forum Shocked
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

I'm guessing it could. Is there a reason why you'd rather use one than the correct part?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
I'm guessing it could. Is there a reason why you'd rather use one than the correct part?


Found a NOS type 3. Just curious if I should grab it for a spare.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

Xevin wrote:
aeromech wrote:
I'm guessing it could. Is there a reason why you'd rather use one than the correct part?


Found a NOS type 3. Just curious if I should grab it for a spare.


It looks very similar in the pictures. If the bolt pattern is the same I'd guess it would work.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

I have no honest idea, but the fuel pressures of D-Jet and L-Jet are close enough, that the valve would likely work just fine. There is only an inlet though, no outlet, so you would have to add a T to the system near where the stock CSV would act as a coupler.

Note, that “work just fine” and “be technically identical in every way” are different. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

Ha, I didn't even notice the T
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
Ha, I didn't even notice the T


Neither did KentPS’ smog tech when we bypassed it completely.....
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
There is only an inlet though, no outlet, so you would have to add a T to the system near where the stock CSV would act as a coupler.


Exactly. That and the fact that the connector is a D-Jetronic one and not an L-Jetronic one on the Type 3 CSV, will make it a non-plug-and-play option.

The nozzle is also considerably longer than the CSV on the bus, but I don't think that would make much of a difference once the fuel is sprayed into the plenum.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It would probably work, but before using it you'll have to:

- Couple the single inlet with a T to provide a return for the bus fuel rail
- Either modify the harness or build an adapter to connect from L-Jetronic (harness) to D-Jetronic style (CSV).

Specs

Type 3 CSV:
• Bosch 0 280 170 015 (*)
• Flow rate: N/A
• Spray angle: N/A

Bus CSV:
• Bosch 0 280 170 026
• Flow rate: 85 cm3/min
• Spray angle: 80°

(*) or alternatively:
- Standard Motor Products: CJ8
- Beck Arnley: 158-0086
They are all originally the same Bosch part, just rebranded.
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Last edited by furgo on Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

Just leave it off and block off the fuel line to it. It really doesn't do that much.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

Thanks for the input guys. Good to know. I do know many guys block it off but just wondering if the type 3 an alternative solution. And now I know Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

there are a lot of similar CSV for sale with one nipple. The length of the injector has to do with the thickness of the manifold. I'd go for one with the shortest injector to reduce shadowing of incoming air, but since the fuel is injected downstream at the ports - even if only 3 cylinders fired on starting the other ones would catch in a second or two.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

furgo wrote:
asiab3 wrote:
There is only an inlet though, no outlet, so you would have to add a T to the system near where the stock CSV would act as a coupler.


Exactly. That and the fact that the connector is a D-Jetronic one and not an L-Jetronic one on the Type 3 CSV, will make it a non-plug-and-play option.

The nozzle is also considerably longer than the CSV on the bus, but I don't think that would make much of a difference once the fuel is sprayed into the plenum.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It would probably work, but before using it you'll have to:

- Couple the single inlet with a T to provide a return for the bus fuel rail
- Either modify the harness or build an adapter to connect from L-Jetronic (harness) to D-Jetronic style (CSV).

Specs

Type 3 CSV:
• Bosch 0 280 170 015
• Flow rate: N/A
• Spray angle: N/A

Bus CSV:
• Bosch 0 280 170 026
• Flow rate: 85 cm3/min
• Spray angle: 80°


Actually an L-jet plug housing can be made to fit the D-jet valve nearly perfectly in about five minutes.

Or...if you want to sample some other D-jet parts...you can use the 022 906 171 A.....if you can find one.

This is identical to the D-jet valve in the picture except that it has an inlet and outlet just like the 022 906 171 B used on L-jet.

That is the difference in the TYPE 4 D-jet cold start valve versus a type 3 model cold start valve.

On all type 4 fuel injected engines whether the were D-jet or L-jet...the cold start valve was a through feed valve that was part of the loop and not a Tee style valve like type 3. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

I am not an expert but talked to Ed at Car Craft in Riverside , CA today, holder of the world speed record of VW at Bonneville on vw under 2000cc to date, he basically said the CSV really never worked right and he wouldn't worry about even having one. I have heard this a couple of times from my injector rebuilder and Ed, he said when he worked for VW USA 40 years ago Vw had a flyer to give to folks to help folks start their engines in cold weather cause their system did not work well. A story, I dont know, he also mentioned that at higher RPM engine noise they devised a way for the radio to increase in volume because people complained they could hear their radios at high RPM...love the VW stories
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

popuppopdog wrote:
I am not an expert but talked to Ed at Car Craft in Riverside , CA today, holder of the world speed record of VW at Bonneville on vw under 2000cc to date, he basically said the CSV really never worked right and he wouldn't worry about even having one.

That's good to hear, and I hope it's true. When I refreshed my engine last spring, I installed the CSV, but didn't connect fuel or connector to it. And it starts fine. Although I live in a desert where cold weather is rarely a problem...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

The CSV actually does work well.....but only when its really cold.

On a well tuned engine in good shape with good cranking speed.....I hsve never seen a need for it above about 25 F.

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

my CSV works great and I think I have a NOS one around too. $550 buys it if I can find it. Otherwise Google and fleabay "CJ8 - Cold Start" and find either a CJ-8 csv or one like it but make your own tee. Owning a late bus is a challenge. That comes with the turf.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

Quote:
$550 buys it if I can find it


You joking? That's crazy talk!

My CSV kicks ass in the cold. 10 degrees out, it pumps fuel right where I need it and the motor fires up great.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
The CSV actually does work well.....but only when its really cold.

On a well tuned engine in good shape with good cranking speed.....I hsve never seen a need for it above about 25 F.

Ray


The TTS set point is something like 110°F. I personally think this is too high. I have seen a lot of problems with these engines not being able to start when on the cold side because they are getting too much fuel. At 6000' or above a guy gets to his rig and fires it up, after a minute or so he shuts it off so he can use his key to open the back hatch. He then tries to restart the engine, but it floods and will not restart because no heat has reached the TTS switch yet and the CSV is thus staying open too long pouring in excess fuel.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
The CSV actually does work well.....but only when its really cold.

On a well tuned engine in good shape with good cranking speed.....I hsve never seen a need for it above about 25 F.

Ray


The TTS set point is something like 110°F. I personally think this is too high. I have seen a lot of problems with these engines not being able to start when on the cold side because they are getting too much fuel. At 6000' or above a guy gets to his rig and fires it up, after a minute or so he shuts it off so he can use his key to open the back hatch. He then tries to restart the engine, but it floods and will not restart because no heat has reached the TTS switch yet and the CSV is thus staying open too long pouring in excess fuel.



I have had enough issues with cold starting amongst my customers along the northern latitudes to really appreciate the critical assist that the cold start valve provides. If you map the fuel mixture from dead cold to operating temperature, you will find that the L-Jet engines really dump in the fuel for the initial start, allow a stinky rich three-to-five warm up and then lean out for operating temperature.

When I richened the factory L-Jet original engine to survive the desert highway driving, I noticed right away that my cold starts, though the engine would light instantly, would give me a rich lopey idle during the three to five minute warm up. If I set the mixture to factory .7% CO, the cold start and warm up were delightfully lovely, but my head temps would scare me.

The factory specs on the TTS are:
11 seconds grounding at 0* F
1/2 second grounding at 52* (early)
1/2 second grounding at 95* (late)
Remember, cold start valve only operates during starter. If you are experiencing rich running after you have let go of the key, chances are good that you should look elsewhere for causes of rich running.
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