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neisman
Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2017
Posts: 97
Location: PA
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 Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:42 pm Post subject: Coil Questions |
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I have a 1969 Beetle 1500.
I want to change the ignition coil to a hotter one, but know nothing about coils.
How are the rated? What makes a "hot" coil?
Can a coil be too hot? With a "Hot" coil should I have better wires to take best advantage of the increased spark?
I have searched Samba.com and got 5000 hits on "Coil". None that I read had much to do with coils, hence this post.
If anybody can link me to hard information to educate me, I would be very appreciative. |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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| neisman wrote: |
I have a 1969 Beetle 1500.
I want to change the ignition coil to a hotter one, but know nothing about coils.
How are the rated? What makes a "hot" coil?
Can a coil be too hot? With a "Hot" coil should I have better wires to take best advantage of the increased spark?
I have searched Samba.com and got 5000 hits on "Coil". None that I read had much to do with coils, hence this post.
If anybody can link me to hard information to educate me, I would be very appreciative. |
Stock 1500 motor, uhm....... I see no particular need for a hot coil. make sure the stock coil is in good shape, good, clean points, timing and dwell adjusted, make sure key switch is delievering full voltage to primary side of stock coil. check with volt meter, if low, clean connections, or even consider a relay make sure dizzie capacitor (condenser) is good, clean good cap, rotor, plugs and plug wires. If any of these basic items is less than correct, your not getting full potential out of the more than good enough stock system.
So get all above in good shape first and formost, and you'll be fine. also note how you may test the system to some degree by running motor and pulling a wire and hold near ground, you should get a nice blue colored arc or spark of adaquit length, a weak short yellow spark means something is amiss.
save you money, no need for a high output coil, but a weak condensor, dirty cap, or high resistence key switch or any of the others will certainly give a more than enough spark if repaired to tip top STOCK condition.
Anyhow thats my humble opinion save the hotter spark coil for the high reving custom motors, but even they may not benifit all that much for it.
Good Luck Sparky the Bug!
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VW_Jimbo 
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9960
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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Get a Bosch blue coil and call it a day. Unless you have a different than stock ignition system. A hotter spark has no real advantage on stock systems.
What are you trying to gain by getting a "hotter spark"?
What size engine do you have? Carb(s)? Dizzy?
Regular gas? Single port or dual?
Stock exhaust or?????
Stock heads or ?????
crank, cam stock or?????
_________________
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There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76912
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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Not all Bosch blue coils are the same.
Brazilian is the one you want. The Mexican ones can over heat and fail.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16757
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Not all Bosch blue coils are the same.
Brazilian is the one you want. The Mexican ones can over heat and fail. |
Is there a difference between the construction of the 2? I have seen that most are oil filled and some are epoxy filled...Is that the difference and is there a different part number?
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neisman
Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2017
Posts: 97
Location: PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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Doesn't a hotter spark burn the fuel more completely and faster. My engine is currently on a test stand while the body work is done.When it goes back into the car, it will have a weber progressive 2 bbl, single port, headers, and stock heads. I will be running 16" tires and AC.
Why do you think that a hotter coil will make no difference on a stock system.
| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Get a Bosch blue coil and call it a day. Unless you have a different than stock ignition system. A hotter spark has no real advantage on stock systems.
What are you trying to gain by getting a "hotter spark"?
What size engine do you have? Carb(s)? Dizzy?
Regular gas? Single port or dual?
Stock exhaust or?????
Stock heads or ?????
crank, cam stock or????? |
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Xevin
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014
Posts: 7624
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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Maybe some useful info here?
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/BlueCoil.html
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
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| Damn that Xevin... |
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My God! Xevin and I 100% agree  |
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johnanddes
Satellite Wrangler
Joined: October 17, 2004
Posts: 692
Location: Orcutt CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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| andk5591 wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
Not all Bosch blue coils are the same.
Brazilian is the one you want. The Mexican ones can over heat and fail. |
Is there a difference between the construction of the 2? I have seen that most are oil filled and some are epoxy filled...Is that the difference and is there a different part number? |
Oil ones can leak (like my pertronix flame thrower coil did) while the epoxy ones are really stable. Also I have heard good things about the Beru blue coils
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1969 documented numbers matching bug
1968 F250
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76912
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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| neisman wrote: |
Doesn't a hotter spark burn the fuel more completely and faster. My engine is currently on a test stand while the body work is done.When it goes back into the car, it will have a weber progressive 2 bbl, single port, headers, and stock heads. I will be running 16" tires and AC.
Why do you think that a hotter coil will make no difference on a stock system.
| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Get a Bosch blue coil and call it a day. Unless you have a different than stock ignition system. A hotter spark has no real advantage on stock systems.
What are you trying to gain by getting a "hotter spark"?
What size engine do you have? Carb(s)? Dizzy?
Regular gas? Single port or dual?
Stock exhaust or?????
Stock heads or ?????
crank, cam stock or????? |
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A hotter or higher voltage spark can help if you have too weak a spark, but up to a point further voltage increases give no further returns in performance. Why would the stock system be designed too low for best performance? If stock system is in good condition, all components working as designed, in good adjustment, you wont gain anything.
Rather than spend money on a special coil, that wont do anything special to performance, test, inspect, and repair the stock system.
your stock coil maybe just fine, your system maybe running optimal now, or one or more components are subpar, and need your attention.
Installing a "special" coil on a motor, is not solving the problem if lets say your condenser is starting to leak current, rotor is pitted or worn, cap center brush is worn short, dirty cap, points, a spark wire that is too high resistance, a worn or poorly gapped plug, low voltage on coil primary (input) due to high resistance at the key switch, and its associated wires, connects (instal an ignition relay right off battery wire at generator?, did so on one of my cars, now get full 12 volts to coil primary, before it was more like 9 volts, since coil output voltage (secondary side) is proportional to primary voltage going from 9 volts to 12 volts increased my spark voltage by 33% ! ),....... or maybe you have a faulty coil, they can fail too,
Once you get a spark hot enough to give a blue arc across the stock .024 inch gapped electrodes, further increases in voltage dont really gain you anything.
So remember higher and higher voltage spark is one of diminishioningly smaller and smaller return beyond stock, but it all has to be in good condition.
Stock system in good shape is not too low for a stock motor. high reving race motors, with very large spark gaps, twin plugs, etc... may benefit a bit, but street cars, go stock, but make sure all is well with it.
Super high voltage coils that will give extra zoom to a stock Bug are an advertisers make-believe story. In my opinion for what its worth that is (ie worth every penny you just paid for it)
Good Luck Sparky the Bug
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| neisman wrote: |
Doesn't a hotter spark burn the fuel more completely and faster. My engine is currently on a test stand while the body work is done.When it goes back into the car, it will have a weber progressive 2 bbl, single port, headers, and stock heads. I will be running 16" tires and AC.
Why do you think that a hotter coil will make no difference on a stock system.
| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Get a Bosch blue coil and call it a day. Unless you have a different than stock ignition system. A hotter spark has no real advantage on stock systems.
What are you trying to gain by getting a "hotter spark"?
What size engine do you have? Carb(s)? Dizzy?
Regular gas? Single port or dual?
Stock exhaust or?????
Stock heads or ?????
crank, cam stock or????? |
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A hotter or higher voltage spark can help if you have too weak a spark, but up to a point further voltage increases give no further returns in performance. Why would the stock system be designed too low for best performance? If stock system is in good condition, all components working as designed, in good adjustment, you wont gain anything.
Rather than spend money on a special coil, that wont do anything special to performance, test, inspect, and repair the stock system.
your stock coil maybe just fine, your system maybe running optimal now, or one or more components are subpar, and need your attention.
Installing a "special" coil on a motor, is not solving the problem if lets say your condenser is starting to leak current, rotor is pitted or worn, cap center brush is worn short, dirty cap, points, a spark wire that is too high resistance, a worn or poorly gapped plug, low voltage on coil primary (input) due to high resistance at the key switch, and its associated wires, connects (instal an ignition relay right off battery wire at generator?, did so on one of my cars, now get full 12 volts to coil primary, before it was more like 9 volts, since coil output voltage (secondary side) is proportional to primary voltage going from 9 volts to 12 volts increased my spark voltage by 33% ! ),....... or maybe you have a faulty coil, they can fail too,
Once you get a spark hot enough to give a blue arc across the stock .024 inch gapped electrodes, further increases in voltage dont really gain you anything.
So remember higher and higher voltage spark is one of diminishioningly smaller and smaller return beyond stock, but it all has to be in good condition.
Stock system in good shape is not too low for a stock motor. high reving race motors, with very large spark gaps, twin plugs, etc... may benefit a bit, but street cars, go stock, but make sure all is well with it.
Super high voltage coils that will give extra zoom to a stock Bug are an advertisers make-believe story. In my opinion for what its worth that is (ie worth every penny you just paid for it)
Good Luck Sparky the Bug |
Bluebus, I like many of the answers that you have given. (deck lid, coil, etc.) I can honestly say that I have worked on VWs for forty years, (but then on the internet anybody can say anything). In this case if the engine is getting a clean burn, which only a plug reading will tell you, putting a "hotter" coil on (which you disagreed with), is absolutely a complete waste of money. In most cases, even on a larger engine the stock OEM coil is enough. However if your carburation is pig rich at some point, you "MAY" need a couple of thousand volts more. However in that scenario, it is the lack of the users tuning skills and not the fault of the coil. I learned most of this information, when my dad was building Formula Vs in the 60s-70s
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73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
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Meiang
Samba Member
Joined: September 27, 2016
Posts: 656
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:30 am Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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If you don't put the hot coil on your car you haven't done the GT stripes thing properly and your car misses out on all that extra power that makes it go quicker.
I recently obtained an original Australian made Bosch GT40 coil which any decent would be petrol head would put on his car in the early 1980's. Now they just make pathetic Chinese made units.
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neisman
Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2017
Posts: 97
Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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So as I understand the opinions expressed so far, they agree that there is no need for a hotter spark unless the current spark is weak for some reason.
There seems to be no downside to a hotter coil.
Since I need a coil, I will go for the hotter one.
I appreciate all the responses, thanks guys. |
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16757
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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Watching this and learning - but would not a hotter coil like larger plug gaps? Would think a larger spark would be what one would be after otherwise it would seem to be a waste...also, would there be premature points wear? Would a different condensor be required? Not hijacking, but the additional information may be useful.
And for curiousity sake, I did a web search and found lots of "opinions" but very little verifiable info. Hotrod.com has a good article on ignition systems, but didnt seem to answer the question.
Based on what I have read so far, doesnt seem like a hotter coil really does anything on an otherwise stock ignition. Kind of seems like putting on a big carb without doing any other engine enhancements to optimize.....
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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neisman
Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2017
Posts: 97
Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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Yes, I saw the same. Folks have opinions, but I found little hard knowledge.
Mostly I see word "Waste" OK, I don't mind wasting spark.
I need a coil and saw no reasons to not install a hotter one. |
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busman78
Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2004
Posts: 4522
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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Hotter coil will usually provide a little cleaner burn on a stocker or slightly modified, giving less unburnt fuel mixture. Where a hotter coil shines is when the mods increase, compression goes up, the rpm's head way north of 5K or you have boost.
So will a hotter coil help, maybe a little, will the hotter coil hurt, nope, not one bit. Given the cost of a original Bosch blue coil or the lack of quality of the new Bosch blue coil buying an aftermarket hotter coil is a better deal in most cases.
I have several old blue coils but I would not hesitate installing a Pertronix Flame Thrower for it has the correct ohm's for the VW ignition and there are lots of other quality brands that will work.
Coils are like oil, there are so many sides of the fence you do not know which one to climb over. |
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neisman
Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2017
Posts: 97
Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Coil Questions |
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| Thanks Busman78! |
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