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Heater Beater 1776
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

OK,

I'll stick my neck out, and throw my hat in the ring..

Here's the documentation of a 'Sweep the Floor' build going on here at the House of Clatter.

The design parameters for this particular build are:
1. Heater boxes.
2. Cheap.
3. (Mostly) materials on hand.
4. Fast and reliable if possible, and not too much money..
5. Maybe try something new and/or learn something?

So,
Be ready for some junk..

First of all, it's a type 1, and I hate 'em.
Second, yes I know that there are better parts, and ways of doing things, and all,
But,
This is the proverbial "1776 with dual Kadrons", and does not need a flanged crank with a type 4 center main.

It, does not, IMHO, even need a stroker crank.
Many experienced builders I have spoken with claim that anything over 1776 will be choked by heater boxes.
Having spent some time tuning a couple of slightly bigger motors with stock heater boxes, both 1904 and 1914, I agree.

Here was a discussion about the combo on the 'ol STF.
Thanks to Torben for sharing the wisdom.
I'll link it here if anyone cares to read details, or about why the combo will end up like it is..
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=149645

So,
Getting going..

One day, at my old shop, a guy comes by and says:
"You work on old VWs here?"
I'm like "Duh"..
He goes on to tell me how he has an old VW motor he was going to build in the 80s,
But left it outside in the rain since then, and I could have it for free.
So I went and got it...

It was, rusted solid into a huge blob of brown/red rock-like muck.
(Sunken into the mud less than a block from the ocean for 20+ years Rolling Eyes )
I'll dig up some dis-assembly pics if I can.
It almost didn't come apart without breaking everything.
IIRC, only the case was save-able?


Turns out, it was done by my good friend, our local automotive machinist/hero
Jim Musich, at NAPA Carr Parts here in Santa Cruz.
His stamp was on it - .020 on the mains, indeed a fresh line-bore so many years ago. Dancing

I had him braze on a pickup tube extension,
and open up for some 90.5s.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


We'll end this first installment right here;
Mom is giving me stink-eye.

Will hopefully include some more details here soon..
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

Subscribed.
This should be a fun build to read.

Good Luck.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

Cool. We have one person watching,
So it's official!


Because the case was so very crusty, especially inside,
And,
My friend William told me about a guy in nearby Watsonville who just geared up to do vapor-blast..
Figured I'd try the guy out and see.
No big risk doing a 'junk' case, right?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


They got the inside clean, which was the most important part.
There was a ton of crust and crap, dirt, etc. loose in there.

At $250, this was by far the most expensive part of the build..
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

I'm also in the process of restoring the bottom of the case - the sump plate area.
Because this thing sat in the mud for several years,
There was some pretty good corrosion going.

I'm only started in on this, and the pookie is drying as we speak,
but here's how it starts:

Bottom of sump plate is all eroded away.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


First, the M6 studs are all removed,
And a sort of 'form' is made using some gorilla tape.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


JB Weld (or in this case a Devcon copy) is 'flowed' into all of the crevices/pits.
The stuff is relatively liquid at first,
So it levels out and sinks in;
Trying to prop up the case with the bottom plate almost perfectly level; to get it to lay flat as it hardens.
It soaks in, and gets low in spots,
So follow-up applications are done, to get it all 'high', so it can be sanded down.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I also took a small pointy X-Acto knife and dug the stuff out of the stud holes,
While it was about 3/4 set up,
So it wouldn't be a PITA and in the way once hardened.



Also had my kid help me tap some galley plugs..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



More in days to come..
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jpaull
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

Nice job on the case!

When you set up the case on the mill are you using just the mating surface? I have a similar mill and curious on set up.
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Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

I am digging that vapor blast!!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

Last year I built an almost identical 1776. Kads, ported stock valve heads, heater boxes, 1 3/8" header, cb2239, 9.0, and a light flywheel. I used as many stock parts as possible. Stock crank and rods, all stock tin, and stock push rods.
It was an awesome little engine. Plenty of power, great mileage, cheap and easy to build.

If I had a CW crank and a similar pile of parts I would maybe bump the cam to a 218/119 and leave the rest the same.

Brian
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
Nice job on the case!

When you set up the case on the mill are you using just the mating surface? I have a similar mill and curious on set up.


OK,
Glad you asked.

That's Jim's set-up, but I will answer what I know about it.

You will see that he is using a fixture to mount the case to the table.
It's something he had made years ago; a precision-ground big 'box' with open ends.
It is deep enough that the case-half studs clear the table, and the right size that it supports the case well at the parting flange.
He is indeed measuring off of the parting flange.
Any variation (error) on the part of mother VW between crank bore centerline, and case centerline, will have to be dealt with in other ways.
Sometimes they got it dead nuts, other times it's a few thou.
Never had it so bad that juggling rods, pistons, and cylinders won't solve the issue.. There's always a few thou to be found here and there, especially nowadays.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


See also that his hold-down allows quick/easy change, for switching the other case half into place..
Also note the number of flycutters for the different operations,
And their heft/girth.
All part of the way he gets that beautiful chatter-free finish..

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Something else to note, is how he left material at the bottom of the cylinder spigot.
He wants an example of every cylinder in-hand to fit the depth of the main plunge cut.
So much variation in these numbers these days..
Notice that the clearance for the 'sleeve' (?) at the bottom of the cylinder stops at the right depth, and there is a 'step' where the material below the cylinder is retained,
And the meat is left in the case as much as possible.
I have seen other people's open-ups where not so much care was taken,
And another operation was not done,
And the cut goes all the way down,
Not retaining as much material in the case.

The case-savers have been clearanced well below the deck surface cut.
Well below..
I had hell with some 94s here, done by another shop, because they cut the case-savers with the same pass/cut as the deck.
They were flush as a result..
What ends up happening, especially with 94s,
is that there is some 'deflection' or 'stretch' when the head studs are tightened.
The case savers are drawn towards the heads just a bit,
And then the cylinder base is now sitting on the case savers, and not the case deck itself.
I have also had case-savers turn a bit when tightened.
This all happens as the case is being final-assembled,
And there's sealant in the way so you don't see it,
And the tops of the cylinders are now not flush with each other,
And the heads leak,
And it sucks and blows big black donkey balls.
So make sure your case-savers are clearanced like Jim does here,
And not just cut flush with the deck like everyone else does..

I'll try and get more details on this op next time I'm there.
This guy has done thousands of motors,
Gets to pick his customers these days,
and is likely to retire soon. Crying or Very sad
I'm lucky to be able to get back there and see these things, and bug him with questions.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

So much for my JB Weld experiment.. Rolling Eyes
I guess that's what I get for using JB Weld on anything, right? Laughing
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It just peeled off by hand.
Maybe something to do with the 'peened' nature of wet blasting?
Might need to scuff for some tooth..

Also,
That JB Weld was an older tube that had been opened before.
Might not be fair to pass judgement if it was old and stiff/crappy.

Drat, that I had that pickup tube brazed on already!! Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall d'oh!
I coulda set-up an operation to just mill this all flat again..

Was also thinking of making a tube to hand-sand this all,
Or gluing sandpaper to the sump flange, and rocking it back and forth to sand,
or..?

There's a couple other of these rotten-bottom Type 1 cases here to be done the same,
And they aren't making new ones anymore,
So it looks like it might actually be worth tooling up to do these?

What has this world come to?
If I was on crack, this would all make sense why I was bothering with all of this..

Might just scuff it a bit,
And glue the sump on with some RTV, or maybe 518, and call it done..
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

Clatter,

Thanks for taking the time showing all those details on the maching, that helps alot! Also for anyone else out there setting up to do these. The step and case saver info is priceless.

Those cutters are awesome. Nice and heavy steal with lots of support. I see guys making these out of aluminum which seems nuts.

If you wanna try your epoxy again...
The vapor blast might have left too smooth of a surface. If you had a coarse wire wheel on a bench buffer you could break down that sump surface some. Important that its coarse and strong so it breaks down some of the alloy and not just polish. It would get in those porous areas well. Spray some brake cleaner on it and After the brake cleaner evaporates warm it in a oven just abit. After the case cools down to 100-110 use a new mix of standard jb weld. (Not kwik)
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Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
So much for my JB Weld experiment.. Rolling Eyes
I guess that's what I get for using JB Weld on anything, right? Laughing
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It just peeled off by hand.
Maybe something to do with the 'peened' nature of wet blasting?
Might need to scuff for some tooth..

Also,
That JB Weld was an older tube that had been opened before.
Might not be fair to pass judgement if it was old and stiff/crappy.

Drat, that I had that pickup tube brazed on already!! Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall d'oh!
I coulda set-up an operation to just mill this all flat again..

Was also thinking of making a tube to hand-sand this all,
Or gluing sandpaper to the sump flange, and rocking it back and forth to sand,
or..?

There's a couple other of these rotten-bottom Type 1 cases here to be done the same,
And they aren't making new ones anymore,
So it looks like it might actually be worth tooling up to do these?

What has this world come to?
If I was on crack, this would all make sense why I was bothering with all of this..

Might just scuff it a bit,
And glue the sump on with some RTV, or maybe 518, and call it done..


I no longer use any type of epoxy for this type of repair. Much better results with this.

https://www.por15.com/POR-PATCH_p_53.html

Epoxy in time will surcomb to gas and oil. I re-sealed a very leaky motorcycle gas tank with their product and 5 years latter it sill was like the day I repaired it. You must follow the directions to a tee. I have also reparied carbs with this stuff with great results.

Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

I’d just use a sealant and spend my time elsewhere.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
4. Fast and reliable if possible, and not too much money..

I'm sure you've heard the ol' saying: "Cheap, fast, reliable...pick any two." Wink

Clatter wrote:
... a guy in nearby Watsonville who just geared up to do vapor-blast

Would this be Marino's on Freedom Blvd. by any chance? If not, could you please share who's providing this service...results look great.

BTW...I've got a set of brand new, unused CB Performance Uni-Tech 5.4" rods that you can have for free if you want 'em. Also have a 69mm crank (cut .010" under), a used stock cam and a stock 200mm flywheel that you're welcome to as well. I'm in Santa Cruz...PM if interested.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

What cam did you choose?

I read your shoptalk post and it indicated you cleaned up/ported a set of stock heads and were going to shim up some HD springs as well-good choice.

For the most heat make sure you use orig VW heaterboxes-they are much heavier then the finned aftermarket Dansk boxes and put out over 40F more heat at the footwell exit on my VW.

Who did you use for machine work in the Bay Area?

Also, I would lighten everything you can-it won't be fast but reliable and fun to drive.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

Cheap, Fast, Reliable.. Pick None! Laughing Laughing

Here, we pick cheap.. Wink

Vapor blast was done at a vintage BMW motorcycle shop, over by Watsonville hospital, that I cannot for the life of me remember!. DOH! d'oh!
I'll get that once my brain works again..

Anyhow,
I spent almost a whole day on case prep.

Initially, I used a set of aluminum Empi galley plugs I got in a colorful blister pack.
That led to an "Empi Moment", where the hex stripped out, and I was just trial fitting them.
Luckily, an easy-out got it free, and all the rest in the trash where they belong.
There is a steel set from Aircooled.net here luckily, that works a treat (as their stuff always does).

Don't know how anyone can do this with a regular old tap handle;
I must be a total puss..
It takes me these square sockets, on a big 1/2" slider breaker bar, to turn that big tap..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here's the obligatory 'flow enhancer' full-flow fitting mod;
A regular 90 brass pipe fitting from he hardware store becomes a super hi-po racing low-profile stealth performance part!! Dancing Dancing
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Always learn something, every time I do another one of these motors, even still..
Look at the pic above
See that plug right next to the 90 fitting;
That tapered aluminum plug?
It goes ight there.
Jim just taught me this - that's a restrictor plug.
it keeps too much oil from flowing into the tiny #4 nose bearing(!) Exclamation
I had always drilled/tapped that sucker, and it seems that might just be a fool thing to do..
Apparently, it needs restricted.
Was going to pull all of them, since the case was blasted,
But,
Because it would be hard to get out without damaging the hole that holds it,
I decided to leave well enough alone..
Maybe I'll get the cojones later; we'll see.


After the tapping operations,
There are a couple of holes where burrs remain as a result.
Used a piece of Scotch-Brite on a slotted wooden dowel,
In the relief plug bore.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And also in the rear lifter bores..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Check out the porosity (water damage?) I found in that lifter bore.
Lucky lucky it's not in a spot that matters.. Shocked
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Here's another view of how Jim opened up my cylinder registers.
Check out how he leaves a step right at the bottom of the cylinder.. Cool
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Next, I started in on opening up the 'windows' between the adjacent cylinders.
Especially with a counterweighted crank, this has to help.
Here is 'before', on the right, and 'started' on the left.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


While the die-grinder was out, I chased down any burrs and casting flash.
These crappy mag type 1s even have flakes of material that can be picked loose..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A few hours later - (You could literally do this forever)..
For a 1776 with dual Kadrons, I'll call it plenty.
Dag, I even flap-wheeled this stuff, but forgot to take an 'after' pic. Rolling Eyes
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Here's another odd thing about this case..
Jim says this is common among off-roaders; the case/trans bolts are loose,
And the car goes over rough roads,
then the case 'frets' against the trans, wearing these grooves in it.
I took and smoothed out the edges of these grooves, in case my trans fits a little different.
Will hopefully prevent the grooves from not allowing the case to seat clear 'home'..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




After die-grinding for hours, the parting surface could have gotten burred or nicked.
(Could have happened before, too).
So the cleanest/best of my files (lightly) chases and burrs or damage, to make the parting line flat.
See also the 'Hoover HVX Mod' to cam bearing oil-transfer slots.
We will be trying to get more oil to the 1-2 side, if possible.
Will be doing the additional long drilling once the case is on the stand,
And it can be confirmed that the drilling can be done without breaking thru.
More on this later..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Lastly, the pickup tube gets trimmed..
Too long, this one, especially with the CB thin-line sump.
Best bolt it down first, to not loosen where the pickup tube is swedged into the case.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The (big/stupid) cover plate has a boss in the middle to look out for;
I drilled/tapped the thing there for a drain plug.
Me no likey dick-dick with gaskets every oil change. Rolling Eyes

It finally got bolted tight to one case half,
To know for 100% certain that the pickup tube was the right length in real life.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Also need to bolt it clear down to both case halves,
And grind away any places where the case fouls the sump.
The sump needs to touch the case at the mounting flange only;
Which it don't, if you don't grind a few spots away.. Wink


Anyways,
I got it all polished up inside and didn't even take a picture! d'oh!
It's all done now, ready to clean and assemble.

What a couple of you said rang true, no doubt;
That the surface of the case being 'peened' seems to have rendered it un-able to take a 'tooth' for the glue.
This would also be an issue for sealants like at the case halves, no doubt.
For this reason, it'll go to Jim's tomorrow to go in his parts washer.
Just a quick trip thru this dishwasher-like hot water/citrus washer he has..
Should get all the rest of the ATF I used as cutting fluid that's everywhere,
And give the thing some 'tooth' for sealants.

We'll see if it ruins the beautiful vapor-blast finish..


Thanks for the input, guys,
Hope you enjoy my little efforts here.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

Nice prep work so far.

Have you thought about one of the silicone gaskets between the sump and case? I used one on a similar case a few years ago, and it was a perfect leak-free seal between my 3.5qt deep sump. I'm not a fan of JB weld at all unless it's a temporary solution, so in lieu of that or machine work it worked out great.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

Nice work, all the fussy prep work takes time but makes a huge difference. I have used baking soda to blast cases, and have been curious about vapor blasting. Can you share what media was used? After an extended google search I have seen several variations on the system, and using different media, not all of it seems suited for an engine case.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

If you look at the bus motor build in my sig,
It shows my first adventure with vapor blasting here in town.
The guy used glass beads.
He didn't last in that biz long..

There is another vapor blasting adventure in the Fastback build also in my sig.
It's fairly recent, for my trans, and back a dozen (15?) pages or so for a type 4 case.
(Maybe search the thread, it's over 90 pages now..! Shocked )
These were also glass beads, IIRC.
Done here ---> www.nexgenpf.com

This newest 1776 build here is some type of softer plastic media;
Seems a better deal, if some hidden somewhere should come loose, and find a bearing..
Seems to have done a fine job, even with the softer media.

That's all I really know,
Other than you have to drill/tap all of your galley plugs and clean clean clean..
Wink
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 5730
Location: Santa Cruz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

OK,
On with this little beauty, here..

Jim (The guy who did the beautiful open-up Very Happy ) "doesn't do hot-rod motors".
Seriously.
Pretty much nobody does turn-keys, right?
Gene Berg sure wouldn't.
You even see good builders today like Chico or DRD getting their name dragged into the dirt,
Most always because of something stupid the owner did;
A loose intake manifold running lean as all hell for hours, or..?

I'm of the opinion that if you can't build a motor,
You sure as hell can't tune one,
Because tuning is harder than building.

And, if you can't tune 'em, should you be driving 'em?

Too much doodoo happens with these POS old junkers for a know-nothing to have any luck with a hotrod VW.
Newbs should stay with mild combos,
And that's rarely the case.

Anyways, I'm ranting again..
But,
Here's why:
Whenever Jim finds hot-rod stuff (especially cheap crap hot-rod stuff)
He'll give it back to the owner, trade it to me for stock stuff, or just throw it away!
I think I fished this lightened, no doubt cast, 8-dowel Brazilian "Uniserv" flywheel from the recycle bin, IIRC?
He needed a forged German stock one for his customer,
And I think I traded him?
Wait... What just happened?? Exclamation
Laughing Laughing
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here's another place I just cheaped out way too much..
Jose at DPR always used to have 10/10 balanced counterweight cranks at the Bug-O for $100-$125..
It's just too hard for an old cheapass like me to pay $250!
So I took the bait here: http://dprmachine.com/promotions/

And ended up here:
Embarassed Rolling Eyes
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Even worse,
I spent almost double what the crank cost getting the whole ting spin-balanced at Ed's Crankshaft in Newark..
Look how they had to pile up the weld to get the (USA Kennedy) pressure plate in line.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Some of the crank webbing was shaved down:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here, we have some factory (DPR?) balance drillings above,
And Ed's balance drillings below.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So,
A bunch of extensive/expensive spin-balance work,
For a crank that is on it's last trip thru here on earth.
All to save $100.. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
Don't be like me; too cheap for my own good.

On a happier note;
found a good picture of Jim's ace open-up from the side.
Shows the case-saver relieve-ing..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Also an 'after' shot of case porting..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


More to come later as this all gets cleaned up and sorted out.
Still have a lot of digging thru old greasy boxes of junk, to find the little misc. stuff that it takes to put a whole motor together..!
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pondervwmike
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Heater Beater 1776 Reply with quote

Great pictures and write up on your case prep. I love the case porting. I am working on a 2127cc right now. I am subscribing! Popcorn
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1967 Cal Look Beetle Street Car in re-restoration,customization. Mom and Dad bought it in 1983 when I was 4.
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2127cc build thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=681556&highlight=
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