Heater Beater 1776

[Clatter]

Here's a little positive stop tool Damon gave me.

Nice long reach for working on assembled engines with tin.

Using it to check my cheap Empi pulley for TDC:

Needless to say, something is amiss here.

Had forgotten to degree in the new Web 163.
Using a better CB pulley (Thanks Jim!),
Was able to get things within a degree or two.

Now that my .010" shims came in,
I spent most of a day doing geometry, and geometry-related tasks.

Thinking of using the Mazda Courier feet?
Needs quite a few shims.

Seems about right at 1/2 lift....

Like many aftermarket things,
Those ball feet have a large variation in quality.
Any of you out there with bad experiences might check your sources.
Afromarket ones have too-big-a flats ground into the balls.
They also have the staking holding the balls done sloppily, to pinch the balls.
The real deals are actually really nice.
And, mind you, they will accommodate the .430 or so lift of the Web 163 without anything but the balls touching the top of the valve stem..

I'm tempted to run them just for grins.
Except for the oil hole thing shown in the last post..
Maybe I'll file a splash hole or channel in the rockers, and run the elephant feet..
Will show a pic what i mean later.
Still a long ways from cutting any pushrods..

Decided it was time to go ahead and assemble the P&L;
Enough monkeymonkey with valvetrain already!

My helper here is actually some good help these days!

He is also a magician!
Look! The trick with the magic rings!!

Think he seated the snap rings all the way?
Put the sharp edges out??
Guess we'll find out eventually, eh?

Here it is, with cylinders and shims Ultra-Grey'ed down.

Used the latest trick gleaned from Ray Greenwood,
Where we put them all together tightened only lightly,
To get it torqued down after it dries.

Here it sits waiting for tomorrow,
Where I'll be able to give it another day of geometry fiddling.
Because,
Well,
I could just fiddle with geometry for days...

_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Clatter]

So much for tomorrow - it somehow turned into Friday.

Sad news, the greatest automotive machinist in the world.
(OK, definitely at least Santa Cruz county)
That guy Jim who I showed before - the shop he worked at closed down,
And he retired..

Can't tell you how bad this sucks for me.
Looks like I'm going to have to find a different hobby.

He is, however, in the process of building a shop at his house,
Where he might just be persuaded to perform certain operations for patients in dire need.
Here's to hoping and praying..


Anyhow, here's what I did last night after work..

Cleaning heads in a pan of Sunoco race gas..
I love using gas to clean parts. Nothing works better.

Even though he says they don't need it,
I gave the LAST EVER set of heads from Napa Carr Parts in Santa Cruz a lap-in, just to behold the beauty.

*sniff* Beautiful...

Now,
Y'all are going to have to take a set of heads to your local FLAPS machinist,
Have a "valve job" done on them,
And lap them in.
You will then understand what is so damn beautiful about the little stripe around that valve..
Valve jobs are art.

My motors always seemed to make a bit more power than some other guys' similar motors.
(It ain't braggin' if it's true )
And these Jim valve jobs are why, IMHO.
Valve margins can make a big difference in the way a motor runs,
And not just at WOT, but clear under the curve, so to speak..
Go look at that Ray Vallero build thread again if you want to see more on this subject..


I did a whole big cleanup session, and just got my valvetrain and head setup stuff out.
Doing valvetrain geometry and setup, I like to get it all laid out for the task at hand.
Want to be able to move from one job to the next,
And not be distracted by finding things, cleaning, or -especially- looking for a place to set things down, most of all..

Notice that the drill press is missing from the bench there?

Oh, no... I forgot to ask Jim to back-cut the intake valves.
Now that Carr Parts is closed, I'm left up to my own devices.
Here a crime got commited under a streetlight last night.
Avert your eyes..

Anyhow,
Here's what things have come to..


_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[67rustavenger]

Nice job on the valves.

I know all too well the hell that you are living through with regard to shops closing in the area.
I had a parts house locally that closed. Now I have to travel the distance of Santa Cruz to San Jose to fetch parts for my beetle.
Well there's always order online and wait. I really dislike that option.

I also found out yesterday that no one on my side of the Portland area has a Bridgeport mill. I was looking to have a shop mill off .060" off my rocker blocks.
I had to improvise and do the work myself with a belt/disc sander.

Damn I wish I had your origination skills. I'm more of a train wreck. But I manage to get things done.

Keep posting. I'm especially interested on how you're going about setting your rocker geo.

Good Luck.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!

[weasel_ugs]

So is back cutting the valve kinda like a partial 3 angle valve job?

[Clatter]

Got a couple of hours yesterday;
The amount of time a (mostly) proper valvetrain setup can take is yuge!

They say it takes a full day, and that's if you are in the zone,
In practice, and have everything easily available.
If you only do a couple a year, like me,
It probably takes twice that.

Here's what I was getting at with the valve adventure using the grinding wheel in a drill press..

Compared here is the old set of stock valves that came with those Brazil G01 heads.
They had been done by Jim, with a proper back-cut on the intake, on a valve grinding machine.
You can see the second angle, on the stem side of the valve, adjacent to the seat angle.

The main reason i chose to go ahead and do this "back cut", sometimes called a second angle(?) on the intakes, in spite of not having the proper tools,
Has been mentioned before, in that 35 x 32 is known to be a somewhat asymetrical I/E valve size ratio.
Many performance builders have moved to 39 and 37 intakes with use of the 32 exhaust, so I'm going to try and do what i can with my 35 intakes.

Oh, and -some- might call a 3-angle valve seat job, with two angles on the valve, a "5-angle valve job".
But,
It ain't.

A proper 5-angle valve job is a three-angle valve job with two more angles.

And they are kind of 'blend angles' giving yet smoother/easier transition from the seat to the port and chamber.
Tough to put into words; I'll get some pics before i button this motor up today.


Some other thoughts about the valves above.

1. The main reason i replaced them was just pure quality.
They didn't really have all that many miles on them, but the seating area was getting pretty worn.
They were going to need ground again to keep sealed up well; needing enough grinding that they wre getting 'sunk'.

2. These stainless valves are supposed to flow better.
If you look at the profiles of these new valves, they -kinda- have a thinner head and stem.
But,
Kinda not, too.
Maybe the whole 'swirl polish' thing makes some kind of real difference?
Most serious motors, if you look at the valves, you will see a real difference in how thin the head area is.

3. Looking again at my grinder carnage, you can see that i left some of the grinding marks.
I'm thinking maybe that, like how we don't polish intake ports anymore,
And like those rough 'swirl-polished' valves,
Some roughness on the back of the valve head might just promote some flow.
At least,
That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it..


Here's how to set up the springs for coil-bind:
Put a light checking spring from the hardware store in place of the real spring.
It leaves you room to measure 'installed height'.
The stick/tail of your caliper can then reach into the spring seat pocket and find total length of the spring when the valve is closed.
Helps to stick your tongue out a bit, and do a few, as it's not the perfect measurement.
Real racers have a special mic for just this job.

Take a few springs and smash them in a vice.
Write down the number of the biggest one.

Grab the side of an empty beer carton and scratch your cipherage.
Double points if you can do it upside-down.

Lift at valve + spring fully compressed + safety margin + shims
=Installed height.
At least something to that effect...

According to my calcs here, i need .200" worth of shims to get my .060" clearance to bind.
Stacking up three of the .060 shims get me .180. pretty close.

Since i didn't have enough of those .060 shims,
I stacked some of these others up.
Close enough for a 1775 with dual Kadrons.

Can tell you that they put up a real fight going together!
It was like assembling a set of duals - shot one of them across the shop, even.
It really -feels- like those springs will be able to control this cam.

And,
At the end of the day,
It's all about our feelings, right?
So that leaves the group a great place for us to stop today..
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[74 Thing]

What springs did you end up using? I have some old Bug Pack single HD springs and coil bind is in the 1.050" area (for sale in the classifieds), but I need more clearance like yours in the .95-1" coil bind range.

When stacking the valve spring shims did you place the thick one towards the head side or the thick one towards the spring side-maybe I am thinking about this like when I shim rockers-thick near the moving part-eg valve spring.

[Clatter]

[Clatter]

Here's what happened yesterday..

Decided to show a proper 3-angle valve job,
For those that might not have seen one In Real Life..

Manged to get this picture as a good example;
The grey area is grey because of the lapping.
(lapping compound is an abrasive grit you put between seat and valve, and twirl it around while pushing pressure, to lightly smooth in the two surfaces to each other).
The grey area is the 'seating surface' of the valve, having the same angle as the seating area of the valve itself.
Here is a corresponding valve, showing the intersection of the seating surfaces (angle):

This way the valves will seal tightly when there are explosions going on in their face..
Most regular 'murrican car machine shops will only do this one angle - matching the valve and seat so they will seal.
This often makes for a wide seating surface, and sometimes valves 'sunk' deeper into their seats.

What makes a three-angle valve job are the two other angles adjacent, above and below the seating angle, to make the flow through this area better.
In the pic at very top here, the two other angles show as shiny surfaces.
Catching the shine in just the right light shows the other two angles..

Here's a couple more pics:

One thing to notice is how thin the seating surface of the valve/seat (seating angle) is in this particular valve job.
Some others i have seen will be very wide, as wide as the whole seating angle on the valve.

Another thing to note, is how the seating surface is slightly wider on the exhaust valves vs. the intakes.
Many like to have the exhaust like that vs. the intakes.
Some prefer exhaust and intake to have the same width seat (seating angle).

Wish i had an example of a crappy valve job handy to show,
But those get tossed in disgust whenever they show up,
unless they can be rectified..

Hope somebody found this little primer helpful.
We tend to take for granted the things we do know.


Anyways,
Assembling the -very - last- spring, and it did this!

Took me a while to cipher a solution to that one, as it was stuck tight.
Thought i could just bash it with a hammer and move it but nooooooo...

Finally, i figured out to slip a couple of washers under the face of the valve,
So the spring compressor would push that slight bit more,
And it came free..

Hopefully my hammering didn't ruin anything.
It's best not to just get pissed and grab a hammer..


Had a little 'weight weenie' session with the scale WRT pushrods.

Manton thin-wall:

Here are some old Scat aluminum that were known to be super weak,
and they quit selling them years ago IIRC.

Here's some stock aluminum type 4 pushrods for comparison..

Anyone have one of those ac.net (Smith Bros?) pushrods in a near-stock length to measure for me?
I'm really starting to wonder of these things..


Started to get where i wanted to put the thing together already,
So didn't get a whole lot more pics of the assembly process.
There's just too much to building a motor to take all of these pics and babble about it.
Hope to have contributed something with what is unique to this particular motor..
There's other threads about basic assembly techniques, right?


I did the mod to the intakes, so i can retrofit different sized balance tubes when tuning.
(Just like Brian_e suggested)

Drug out the old doghouse and tin, etc.

My Hoover Bit was broken,
And the venturi ring from Awesome Powdercoat needs welded on.

Also decided to go ahead and pop for a brand-new oil cooler;
Seems that this motor ended up nice enough to warrant it this time.
Just can't help but think that after 45-50 years, those OG German oil coolers aren't half-plugged with sludge and schrapnel that can't be dislodged..


The pushrod tubes were too short to be use-able.
Apparently this is another new problem with aftermarket crap parts we get to deal with..
Especially with a bit of flycutting and chopping to make the motor shorter..
Ordered some 40-horse tubes from ac.net, as they are shorter than 1600 tubes.

Mocking things up, checking what's missing, digging parts out of their various hidey-holes, up in the attic and under a bench, and..

It's hard to not get carried away with dressing the thing down;
Body-work and paint all of the tins,
Stainless socket head fasteners,
Ceramic coat exhaust,
Tear heater boxes open for a proper clean-out,
Matching pulley for the alt,
Etc..

I'm, kinda thinking.. Naaa… Fuggit...
Will go take that alt stand in for vapor blast, cause I'm going by the place,
Maybe some rattle-can BBQ for the exhaust,
But that's about it.

This motor is going to get test-run and tuned,
Then will get the pushrods pulled out,
And just stashed away for a rainy day.

The BIG motor in my Oval is running fine for now (touches wood),
And,
You never know when another project might need a motor,
Right?


Let me know if you guys see anything you might want to hear more about.
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Lingwendil]

I've been loving this build, and especially the way you talk and explain things. Wonderful.


For the kadron balance tubes and manifolds, what's your plan so far? play with sizes and setups until it likes one best? I just got a set of those aluminum manifolds myself, and was going to drill out the other boss and tap it to 3/8" NPT for trying out something different. I was planning on putting the balance tube in front of the shroud, and plugging the small holes with pipe plugs, and letting them face the rear of the car. I figure a thinwall steel balance tube, with a few inches of hose on either end to attach to the barbs would be a nice way to go.

Any plans to cut the split/wall down a little under the carb mounting flange on the manifolds? According to Alstrup and others, it can add a little bit of power, and I've also heard it can help with idle smoothness.
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!

[Brian_e]

Or just leave the balance tube off, and sync the carbs correctly with a properly set-up linkage.

The balance tube is just a band-aid to smooth out poor tuning. Once tuned, my Kadron engines are most always smoother without the tube.

The only exception is the mystery 1600SP in my baywindow. I added Kads on single port manifolds and I couldn't get it to calm down till I added the tube.

Better yet....give it a try with each size and report back with your findings.

Brian

[Clatter]

I have the balance tube fittings replaced with pipe plugs for now.

Since the motor is going to be run-in on the stand,
It will be super easy to change out for different size tubes.
Will just use some hose for now, as i’ll be looking right at the fan spinning during the whole process.

I remember AJ saying something about no tube being the ideal, as well.
Provided you have the good linkage..
The linkage I have for this thing is the Scat,
And, far as I can tell, it’s probably as good as any.
The only thing I don’t like about it, is that it won’t accommodate the growth of the engine when hot, like some designs.

IIRC, the factory dual port castings had that little notch between the two adjacent intake ports, right?
There might be something to this... Hhmmm...
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[bkeith85]

I just took my balance tube off and it runs much better. I put it on when I built the engine because I read so many posts about how twin 1bbls needed it to run right. I think it's even in the CB book on Dells. The idle isn't as smooth, but it's close. And the drivability is way better. I'll play with the ilde mixture a little more and I bet the idle will be just fine. I have dual FRDs and a relatively mild Crower cam. The balance tube was steel with short pieces of 3/8" hose going into the fittings in each intake.

I was fighting problems with the idle hanging, but there were no linkage or carb sticky spots. Then there was the run-on when I shut it off. Those are both gone. I had gotten used to the stumble just off idle and having to give it a little rev before I took off, but that is gone now. I can just pull away with the smallest amount of throttle and the acceleration is smooth all the way up. I love it. It even seems to be quieter somehow.

I realized that I had been syncing my carbs all this time with the tube in place. DOH! That won't work. I took it off and one carb was slightly off, I got them both sync'd and opened the idle mixture a little and it idled pretty good. I'll get more tuning time this weekend and I bet it will be running the best it ever has.
_________________
My build thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=614323&highlight=

[Lingwendil]

I found on my 1776 with 110 cam idle quality was much improved without the tube, and so was off-idle throttle response. Cold starts were easier. I was running the stock worn-out kadron linkage, even.

I am currently running a balance tube on my 1600, and need to sync my carbs anyway, so I'll try it without the tube this time too. I'm running CSP linkage now, so I should get even better results, at least in theory.
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!

[Clatter]

As the motor waits for the last parts to arrive,
We dig in to dressing it down..

Here's a few little this's and that's.

Because dual-carbed motors need stuffed without the carbs on,
and even when they sit on the stand stuff tries to fall down the intake,
Plus, nobody uses those steel intake gaskets,
I go like this:

Perfect easy off/on intake port protectors!

So often tins don't fit;
Install, then scribe along a line to get a good mark to trim away..
(then re-install and repeat more often than not)

Crappy aftermarket header, meet crappy aftermarket breast plate.
Crappy aftermarket breast plate, meet crappy aftermarket header.

We'll have a bash!

What a real German breast plate looks like, for refeence.

Old beat junk OG German tins have so many screw mount holes just -gone-.

Check out the clearancing i did years ago for the full-flow fitting.. DOH!

Also other cuts made for temp sender wires, and..?

Here's a more proper way to clear a full-flow fitting, without losing cooling air.

Check out how bent this thermostat bracket is!

Trying to get the t-stat rod to actually actuate the flaps.
Funny the bend at the end here..
These rods are so often all bent up,
That nobody now knows what they are supposed to look like!

If you look at the flap shaft bushing,
Right at the end of the pointer here,
You'll see a groove was worn into the face of the bush.
It was worn -just- so, as to bind the flaps, so they wouldn't open but about 1/2 way.

Only mocking up the fan and entire flap assembly and moving it thru it's travel,
Was i able to find this little no-workie kill-your-motor gem.
Just more ammunition for the t-stat haterz out there..


Oh, it takes a bunch of test-fitting and futzing to get these tight and right.
No wonder nobody does this stuff..!
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Clatter]

Down another rabbit hole..

_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Clatter]

Ended up cleaning up all of the rest of the stuff..
Figured I'd show this shot of what we always seem to inevitably end up doing.

Things drying after being cleaned in a pan of gas on the little table,


The tins and all drying on the cement after Gunk, then rinse, then Simple Green and a scrub-brush, then rinse again.

Same with all of the exhaust stuff in the distance;
You have to get all of the oil residue (that's all over everything) to get paint to stick.
This is fun, remember..

My kid and his buddy from school helped me with pushrod tubes, head torque, cooler, etc.

Welded on my venturi ring from Awesome Powdercoat..

After spending a bunch of time cleaning them up,
It was decided to throw another four cans of Rusto BBQ rattle-can on them.

Here it sits..
Still need to give the carbs a quick blow-out,
Then maybe do the run-in on the stand here.
Or not..
Not sure it's better to go ahead and break in the cam, set timing and mixture, and sync,
Then pull the pushrods and let it sit,
Or maybe just store it like it is..?

I heard that there's acids in break-in oil that aren't good for long-term storage??

Thinkin' that the curiosity will get the best of me..
Just too sweet to have it on display knowing full well it's 100%..

Think it'll run??

_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[calvinater]

Looks fabulous , what are those fresh air / heater box hoses from? They look way more rugged than stock aluminum/cardboard.
_________________
"Albatross"!

[MConstable]

Going back to mating the cylinders to the case, what’s the benefit of not doing the final torque until the sealant dries?
_________________
1974 Thing

[Clatter]

Hi,

Answer to a couple of questions..

1. I don't remember where those heater tubes came from.
Got them years ago, and i think they were on a motor i got,
Wish i had a better answer, because they are really sweet, and have lasted forever..

2. Ray could answer better than i can, but the theory is that you just snug the heads on with the Ultra Grey on the cylinder bases wet.
This allows the sealant to fill all of the flaws in finish and fit, without being all squished out by full torque.
After the sealant sets up, you go to full torque, and the dry sealant is now a gasket, like they call it - "Gasket Maker".
There's my attempt at explaining the idea; reading the instructions on the tube of Ultra Grey confirmed this, FWIW.

ANyhow,
It runs!!

Here's my little run stand built out of an old bus bellhousing;
Easier if you can just run-in the motor on the stand.
Push it onto the grass in case it leaks or tips over or something..

Ran it for 6 minutes, then it ran out of gas.
Ran it for another 6 minutes or so, before it started having one rocker tocking a bit,
So i decided to shut it off, let it cool, and give it another valve adjustment before running it in the next 10 minutes.
Then it got dark and Mom yelled at me to obey.

Touching wood, but it seems that it's another kind of typical case of adjustment moving around during a first run-in.
Will report back..


I'm not going to be stabbing and running it for a while fortunately/unfortunately, because i need to build a transaxle first..

Anyhow, I'll run it some more when the rain stops, and report back.
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[67rustavenger]

The sweet smell of success. Or is that exhaust.

Nice job!

Curious why you need to build a trans. It's not like that's a super high torque engine. But maybe there's an under lying reason that we are not aware of.

I'll likely fire my 2180 later this month. I hope that my outcome is similar to your experience.

Great thread. Fantastic craftsmanship. And you had your son and his friends helping too.
Win, win, win, win!
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!