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1776 Specs and Performance Questions
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MARK8247
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:06 am    Post subject: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

Hey y'all,
I had a good running recently rebuilt 1776 with dual kads which I purchased for next to nothing from a really nice guy. It ran phenomenal until one day when doing service to the engine I dropped a nut down the intake without me noticing. It made its way into the cylinder when I was on a snowboarding trip in the mountains far from home and the rest is just bad news as you can imagine.

I am going to get the engine rebuilt and I have some questions on the specs since I am still an amateur at this. Its gonna get rebuilt as a 1776, big valve heads 40x35.5, 2241 camshaft, lightened flywheel, performance push rods, still running the Kadrons, with a 2-tip tri mil exhaust.

I know I will get moderately good power, but I am also wondering what kind of mpg i should expect from an engine with this set up. Before I was getting anywhere between 20-26 mpg but it had stock heads, regular cam etc. The only performance features it had were just the bigger pistons and dual carbs so I don't know if the big valve heads and tri-mil exhaust and other upgrades are going to cut my mpg even more...?

Also, should I look out for anything else to upgrade while I am at it? Counterweight Crankshaft perhaps? How beneficiary is it really for the extra money when I am just looking for a daily driver that can still be decently fast but commute at least 60 miles per day easily and not a race car? I am all ears so shoot me everything you got, I will really appreciate it.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

Kind of a limited build it is with those carbs. I suppose the 90.5's would support 40mm intakes but probably those carbs should be changed to IDF's 40mm or DRLA 36mm or 40's to take advantage big valve heads. It's just you lose some bottom end with bigger heads and loose top end too with Kadrons. There are cylinder kits that use 94mm heads now that let you go to 92mm thick wall cylinders on your case opening you know.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:06 am    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
Kind of a limited build it is with those carbs. I suppose the 90.5's would support 40mm intakes but probably those carbs should be changed to IDF's 40mm or DRLA 36mm or 40's to take advantage big valve heads. It's just you lose some bottom end with bigger heads and loose top end too with Kadrons. There are cylinder kits that use 94mm heads now that let you go to 92mm thick wall cylinders on your case opening you know.


I'm running the AA cast set, 94mm at the head, 90.5/92 at the case with a 92mm piston. I think they call them thick wall 92 slip ins. EDIT there called 92A-Thick-Top Only part number 92A-T-Step $159.99.
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MARK8247
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

So basically all those upgrades are pointless unless I change to another type of carb set up? I talked to the guy who is rebuilding the motor and he said it's gonna pull up to 90hp which seems decent to me. Im not looking for ultimate performance.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

If you go to a thickwall 92 bore that's nice and thick at the cylinder it should be a dependable build.
I have not tried these cylinders yet. Just the 88's The bottom slip in part is ultra thin on the 88's though. It's a little tricky installing the pistons into the cylinders with them. You need to take great care and not force the pistons into them or hammer with a rubber mallet or anything like that.
Once The Piston & Cylinders are together and on the engine, their good though.

This engine combo just calls out for the Panchito's. I am not sure which size of chamber Panchito would be best though. 54cc or 61cc Chambers. Probably would depend on your cam and desired compression ratio? The experts will know!

The nice thing about increasing bore size is it brings back bottom end lost due to running 40mm X 35.5mm valves heads.

If keeping the Kadrons. I would just run stock heads 35.5mm X 32mm valves with port matching etc and either way 90.5 or 92 on the bore. The CB-2241 would be OK with the Kadrons but if going to Dual Weber 40's or something like the EMPI-D consider a better cam like a Webcam for the combination. Perhaps the Webcam 163. You should run a lightened valve train too with something like the "SCAT" LightWeight Lifter or the CB-Ultra light and solid rockers and HD Aluminum Pushrods. And if you want to rev it above 4500 RPM you will need a breather system.
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MARK8247
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

Ok. I am not going to rebuild this myself. Chicos Perfromance Racing in Arcadia, CA will be doing it so as soon as I get around to talking to him I will ask. Do big valve heads just make it breath better and take in for fuel every stroke?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

The way I understand it is that for optimum performance at a given RPM the Port Velocity needs to be good. The "Panchito's" have the smallest ports of the 40mm X 35.5mm heads.
In an intake system, the smallest point in the system is where the Air Velocity will be highest. That point can be the Carburetor Venturi. In which case the carburetor will perform excellently. However, in an attempt to maximize power the intake port around where the valve stem comes into its center needs to also be a point of maximum airflow velocity (not too big).
Everything else the manifold exit size, the head intake opening size, the carb base size usually need to match at a slightly larger size than the area of maximum air velocity inside the intake port.
Air Fuel ratio is determined by your carburetors venturi size and jetting and the amount the intake mixture is determined by the throttle. If set-up correctly, any size carburetor will produce good MPG's.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:10 am    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

Wow that was a very technical explanation which I am still trying to wrap my head around. Thanks for the feedback though
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

MARK8247 wrote:
I am going to get the engine rebuilt and I have some questions on the specs since I am still an amateur at this. Its gonna get rebuilt as a 1776, big valve heads 40x35.5, 2241 camshaft, lightened flywheel, performance push rods, still running the Kadrons, with a 2-tip tri-mil exhaust.


I wouldn't say it's a terrible combination, but it's not ideal, to say the least. Those heads and that cam in a 1776 should make for a fun little screamer, but those kads are going to trip you up a bit. The tri-mil is OK, but again, it's not doing you any favors. A smallish 4-into-1 would be better.

But the worst problem is it sounds like you're wanting a reliable, high mpg, daily driver with some extra pep- not a fun little screamer. In that case, I would say keep the Kads and the tri-mil, go with some stock-valve heads and a milder cam like the 2280, and if possible, definitely get a counter-weighted crank. Done right, you could still get around 90hp out of it with a much wider power band. Check out the mileage motor build from Hot VW's on the CB Performance site. They were getting 92hp out of a well-built 1745 with TINY components, AND some very good mpg!

Your fuel efficiency will depend more on the design of the combustion chamber and the tune of your carburetors more than the size of the engine.

Good luck, man.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

Yes, but that motor is what it already was basically. Going by the .85 factor in the diagram the engine would optimize with:
28-30mm venturi's and stock port area under the valve and with D=35.5 for stock heads which have 30mm openings they would need pretty major porting to open up to 35.5mm's at the head to manifold port match area. The Kadron 44 I think come with 30mm venturi's not sure what would be needed for the manifold to open it up a little. Here are some links about Kadrons: kadrons, 30mm venturis. KaddieShack. The Kaddie Shack Article recommends 30-32 venturi's.
I will research a little on the "Panchito's" and see how they would come out using the .85 factor.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

Ok so to take advantage of the larger valves of the "Panchito's" on a 1776cc you really need to build an engine capable of 6500 RPM.

Here is a little calculator that will help us understand the relation of Displacement vs Valve Size and RPM's etc...

https://www.gregraven.org/hotwater/calculators/valve-sizing

This is interesting: How much head is too much head?.
Notice the Engine Sizes in this thread about the New 044s
.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

MARK8247 wrote:
Hey y'all,
I had a good running recently rebuilt 1776 with dual kads which I purchased for next to nothing from a really nice guy. It ran phenomenal until one day when doing service to the engine I dropped a nut down the intake without me noticing. It made its way into the cylinder when I was on a snowboarding trip in the mountains far from home and the rest is just bad news as you can imagine.

I am going to get the engine rebuilt and I have some questions on the specs since I am still an amateur at this. Its gonna get rebuilt as a 1776, big valve heads 40x35.5, 2241 camshaft, lightened flywheel, performance push rods, still running the Kadrons, with a 2-tip tri mil exhaust.

I know I will get moderately good power, but I am also wondering what kind of mpg i should expect from an engine with this set up. Before I was getting anywhere between 20-26 mpg but it had stock heads, regular cam etc. The only performance features it had were just the bigger pistons and dual carbs so I don't know if the big valve heads and tri-mil exhaust and other upgrades are going to cut my mpg even more...?




Also, should I look out for anything else to upgrade while I am at it? Counterweight Crankshaft perhaps? How beneficiary is it really for the extra money when I am just looking for a daily driver that can still be decently fast but commute at least 60 miles per day easily and not a race car? I am all ears so shoot me everything you got, I will really appreciate it.


If you are driving 60 miles a day in So. Cal traffic you don't want a cam unless it's a RV grind (high lift and short duration) it pulls strong to 4K then falls off, but will give you the best gas mileage, power, and keep the heat down in that traffic.
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MARK8247
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

Thanks y'all, lots of food for thought. Just so we are all up to date, I will be keeping the Kads, regardless if it actually does hinder some hp. They're quite new and I heard get better mpg, if not as powerful and they are close to stock carbs and I am amateur with carbs at best. Floating VW nailed it on the head when he said I'm looking for reliable, high mpg, daily driver with some pep, not a little screamer. In fact, as much as I love my VW I do hate how friggin loud the ride is, but I am willing to exchange for the awesome feeling of being a VW owner and all the nostalgia and coolness that comes with it. I know it's basically a lost cause, but if any of you know how to make a 1776 any quieter, I am all ears.

The reason I am going with a tri-mil exhaust is because a 4 into 1 header rubs up against the fitting of the oil pump cover of the full flow kit Chico VW also told me those headers will ot yield as much power as the tri-mil. Also, if I get a muffler that hangs below the apron, I will not be able to install my tow hitch which must be flush from the frame horns along the bottom of the engine and out beyond the apron.

What I have gotten so far, is maybe I should forego the big valve heads and instead upgrade to a counterweight crankshaft? What do y'all think about that?
I appreciate all the feedback and I wish I could understand all these numbers you're throwing at me, but so far that's what I've come up with. If y'all are a little more satisfied with that solution, I am too.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

This Tri-Mill 2 Tip? Racing Exhaust.
If going to a counterweighted crank, I would go to a 74mm because they make the bug feel like it's got a 356/912 motor. The 74mm CCW VW Journal Crank will drop right in without clearance to the case or major width modifications to the engine with the 5.325" I Beam, or H Beam Rods.
I went with the CB 4340 Super Race crank and the H beam rods and they were so perfectly balanced the only balancing required other than the pistons was the clutch pressure plate with the flywheel.
That CB-2241 would be a nice cam but a lower lift cam would make better MPG's. The Webcam 118 has 5' more advance and the lift is conservative which will help MPG's.
I don't think, you're going to get great MPG's. Great being over 30 with the Kadrons no matter what, but my Bus with the 74mm crank does do 22-24 on the Highway so your bug may come close to 30 MPG probably depends more on gearing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

Yeah, dan we, that’s the exhaust I’m goin with. So u think I should just go through with the upgrade crank and stock heads?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

Yeah, Unless you do the 92mm Piston and Cylinders above, then you could run the Panchito Heads with the 40mm X 35.5mm valves.

92mm Bore with 74mm stroke is 1968cc big enough for the Panchitos and it would have great torque without the cost of porting heads. It would be the most motor you could build without major re-thinking of everything.

The nice thing that happens with this 74mm stroke engine and a 92mm Bore is the piston skirts clear the crank without having to grind off the piston skirts like I did on mine:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

a stock non-counterweighted crank will help beat the block to death above 5000 rpm....so if you want to utilize the big valve heads you really should go counterweighted.... however once you decide to buy the crank the difference in price is negligible between stock and longer strokes....so....next thing you know your 1776 is a 2 liter...(time for block clearancing,barrel spacers, longer pushrods).but realize a large displacement ,relatively mild engine will put out usable power in the rpm ranges you normally drive in...i doubt you shift at 5 grand on your way to work
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

I agree about the crank but not the rest of the statement. This 1968cc is No machine I bet!
(Not even pushrods!)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

Yeah I'm definitely not looking to punch it out to a 2 liter engine. I am on a college student budget so I do not want too much extra machining and what not when 1776 seems just fine. Im gonna see about upgrading the crank and retaining stock heads.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776 Specs and Performance Questions Reply with quote

What parts do you already have? What parts do you plan to re-use?

Cost of just doing 1776cc rebuild: $1828

Crank Original sent to the shop for grinding $125
Main, Rod, Cam Bearings price at about $80
90.5mm Grant Rings $18
Rods can be done by your local shop for probably $60 but you can get them rebuilt and balanced from Kustom1 or ACN for twice that
Gasket Kit $25
Main Seal $5
Pistons and cylinders will require honing at your local shop for ???$$$ $30
Reusing your heads getting a local head porter to install new HD Springs and new exhaust valves 3 angle valve job and some new keepers and studs guides Port Matchings etc cost me like $477 from my shop or you can get new heads ported from Tims for $650 for the super stock
With luck your case will be good and only need an align-bore it probably has already been inserted. So your local shop can probably handle that and full flow if not already done to it for under $300
You can get a Kennedy Stage One clutch from Powerhaus for $130. The nice thing about this clutch is it centers itself nicely for balancing
Powerhaus also has the oil pump and steel cover and remote filter thing you will need if you don't already have it
I like the Shadek 26mm oil pump 111-115-107AKHD when doing a full flow $45 from ACN
I found nice Scat Solid Rockers and Adjusters from PowerHaus $38 and $22 Scat last longer but CB are pretty good too
You're going to need Paint and carb cleaner and sandpaper, degreaser, cleaners etc. wire brushes some tools and SparkPlugs & SparkWires! Probably will cost an extra $300 for these. So using these numbers above it's going to cost about $1828 to rebuild as is. I didn't include the cam and lifters and PushRod Tubes, full flow hoses and fittings and adapter and hanger or gas hose or clamps but with luck, it will come out of the $300 for extras. Also didn't include a header or mufflers or engine Balancing but with the 4340 74mm crank and the H Beam rods and the Kennedy clutch it should not need much balancing.
So the differences between 1776cc and the 1968cc engine would be in the crank $289 and p&c $199 and heads $610 and 5.325 H rods $254 or I Beam $126 and Cylinder shims $8.

If you get new head's there is a savings with the Panchito's $610 vs $650,
Crankshaft is $289-$125=$164 more,
New AA P&C's Kit ThickWall 92's for a 1776cc case $199-$18-30=$151 more,
Rods I-Beam $126-$60=$66 more,
Cylinder shims $8 extra.
Total: $349 More for the 1968cc engine.
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