Starter issues

[nlorntson]

I'm having intermittent starting issues on a 1955 6V car. Here are the facts

Fully stock restoration
Brand new wiring harness.
Professionally rebuilt Bosch Starter
New battery
When the starter turns over normally, the engine fires up immediately as expected.

Testing I've done:

Turning the key with everything connected as normal results in at least a click of the solenoid and on rare occasion a lethargic starter motor spinning.

Battery at rest is fully charged and shows 6.3V

Voltage at the battery when turning the key to start goes from 6.3 to 5.1V but all I hear is a click of the solenoid. No starter motor turning.

Voltage at the starter when turning the key to start (testing between the starter housing and terminal 30) is 4.8V

Using a screwdriver to connect between the two larger lugs on the starter results in a robust spin of the starter motor.

Using a screwdriver to connect terminal 50 on the solenoid and terminal 30 results in a robust/normal cranking of the engine.

Using a jumper wire from terminal 50 (with the ignition wire from the switch unplugged) directly to the battery results in just a click of the solenoid, no starter motor spinning.

There is a clear coat on the transmission

6V Starter bushing is new and well greased


I've not done any testing at the ignition switch, but the jumper wire running between terminal 60 and the positive terminal on the battery is bypassing the switch and not getting the starter to run. Only the screwdriver directly between terminal 30 and 50 is getting the starter to run normally.

What suggestions does anyone have? The only idea I have left is that the clear coating on the transmission is preventing an adequate ground to the starter, but that does not seem to be the case based on the voltage values.

[fes]

I'm wondering if you should rig up a push button remote starter and hook one alligator to the spade connection for the ignition and other to the 60 nut..turn the key on and try turning it over at the key first, if the problem is still as described as the "click" and sluggish starter, leave the key on and try the remote starter...essentially bypassing the keyed ignition but mimicking the action...the act of jumping the two nuts with a screwdriver only really ensures that the starter "works" but something might be lost in the actual signal between the ignition and starter solenoid, whether it's up front or right there at the unit itself.
And I also think it's not a bad idea to remove the starter and sand down the clear coat to bare metal..
I'm also sure you have checked all connections for tightness including battery clamps, fuses and wires front to back,including the trans braided ground strap.
Good luck and keep us posted
-Matt
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'15 Golf-Stella Blau
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[splitjunkie]

Sounds like a bad solenoid. That is the only way I can explain it working when you short 30 and 50 but just a click when you jumper 50 to the battery.

If the solenoid has a bad coil or is sticking inside it may not work when hooked to the battery because there is just enough voltage drop from the small wire to fully engage the solenoid whereas it gets full voltage and current through the screwdriver.

Have you tried the same wire to bridge between 50 and 30? That would tell you if the wire is causing enough voltage drop to keep the solenoid from fully engaging.
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Chris

You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld

[jason]

I dont remember the lug numbers, check voltage at the starter from key switch. Also before and after switch, or toss a jumper on it to see if it turns over. Only three points Id be concerned over. If it was a ground issue it wouldnt turn over well with screwdriver.

[Eric&Barb]

Try cleaning and dielectric greasing up the surface the starter and transaxle where they mount together. Do same to the mounting surfaces between starter and starter solenoid. Need all those cleaned/greased to have good grounds.
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[Blue Baron]

A hard start relay is also good insurance. More good ignition switches have been thrown away, and more good starters have been replaced than we can imagine because Volkswagen didn't install a simple firewall starter solenoid on their cars.
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We are striving for perfection, to make our cars run forever, if possible.

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[nlorntson]

I pulled out the starter and had a local shop check it out. No problems we're found. I used sandpaper and cleaned off the mounting area of the transmission and reinstalled it. It still clicks initially but after several tries it did finally turn over with enough gusto to start.

At this point it seems better but still not fully working as it should be.

I have another starter I might try. We're traveling to the Kelley Park show at the moment so I'll go through some of the other suggestions when I can.

Thanks all!

[tasb]

[Eric&Barb]

[Motorhead55]

My '55 always cranked slow, even with a 36HP. I had all of the proper and clean battery straps. After I put the 1685 cc engine with the 4 brush bus starter, it cranked okay but still slow, even with a 1000 amp Optima 6 volt battery. I changed the positive lead to a large diameter positive battery cable. I also bought a long negative battery cable and went directly from the negative post of the battery to the 17mm nut that holds the starter to the trans. I left the body to trans strap and the ground flat braided negative cable still mounted to the pan bolt and I cut the clamp off, solder sealed the end, drilled a hole in the flat cable and it hooks to the clamp bolt on the negative cable. The engine cranks like a 12 volt system now, turns the 8 to 1 compression, 1685 engine very well and fast. Lights are brighter. Problem solved.
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1939 WILLYS pickup
1967 Triumph Tiger Cub

[Noggindoo]

I am very interested in this thread as its very very similar to problems i am having. Please up date your progress /findings.
So far i have a new 6v battery, new starter motor and bush fitted and it will crank if i short using a screwdriver. But nothing when trying to use ignition. So i have replaced the earth strap and trans strap but still the same issue. I have even taken a new wire from the solenoid spade though into the car so i can touch the +ve battery terminal. this worked once or twice but then nothing.
I have just ordered a new +ve battery cable to go from the battery to the starter. I am hoping this may sort it but i have my doubts.
Motorhead55 - any chance of a photo of your solder negative cable to understand what you did.

[nlorntson]

Just to circle back on this issue. I discovered that the car started just fine with a jump from another 6V battery which pretty much headed me into searching for a source of a battery drain.

I used a multimeter to test for a parasitic drain on each fused circuit and found a 5.8V drain on the #1 fuse which I traced back to the wiper motor. When I pulled the power wire to the wiper motor off the fuse, no more parasitic drain and the battery now had full power to start the car and not drain the battery after sitting.

In my case the wiper is self parking via a band brake motor, and the motor was missing some parts and despite the switch being off, trying to park itself all the time which accounted for the parasitic drain.

I broke my ankle shortly after this finding and haven't been back on my feet since to put things back together, but the car does turn over like a champ now.

[Noggindoo]

Thanks for the update. Hope your ankle get better real soon.
I will update once i have fitted my new power lead hoping that will sort my problems out.

[Noggindoo]

Ok this is really perplexing me or ok i may be stupid.....
Battery less then 6mths old
new starter motor with solenoid
New earth strap and trans strap all srfaces cleaned
New positive cable to starter
Disconnected b2 cable so only new power to starter motor connected nothing else connected at all.
Took a wire from solenoid 50 and touched to positive bat terminal.
And get a click from solenoid but no turn over
Whats going in any ideas please ??
Faulty new starter motor ???

[Eric&Barb]

[Noggindoo]

Yes, new positve cable to the nut terminal on solenoid .
yes everything was cleaned including the casing / housing that the starter unit mounts on to.
Cant see brushes and cant dismantle starter without probably voiding any waranty. As far as i am aware ts a new starter not reconditioned.
Will try again today.
If the engine turns when i use a bypass straight across the solenoid terminals yet does not turn when i use a wire from terminal 50 to battery then all i can assume is the starter unit has a fault between the solenoid and starter motor.......Would this seem a reasonable assumption.??

[Eric&Barb]

How big is the wire you are using? Too small and not enough amperage.

No, when you got the engine to turn with the starter you proved the starter and its solenoid works. If you cleaned between the solenoid and starter for a good corrosion clean ground between the two, and cleaned where the starter cable connects to the solenoid, then there will be no voltage drops there.

Have seen newly "rebuilt" starters with only two of the four brushes installed....
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[nlorntson]

[Noggindoo]

Hi thanks for the responses.. Ok i brought a new positive power lead from bat to solanoid terminal. Clamp broke when i tried to fit it to bat terminal post so better clamp ordered and now fitted. So with nothing else connected and a temp wire from T50 on solanoid with a bare end i touch the positive terminal and whoooohooooo she turns over. So cleaning connections and new earth n positive power leads works. Starter is obviously ok. NOW NEXT PROBLEM is the starter button. So i connect the temp wire which is ok to starter button, take a new temp wire from start button back inside to batt +ve terminal.
Ipressed button once and she turned over.. Great but then nextbtime nothing and now she wont so starter button must be worn /dirty ?? Can these be cleaned shame not to use it .

[Eric&Barb]

Check for how much voltage getting to and out of the starter button when you try to start the engine.
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