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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
I would not sweat using Silverline mains. |
Same, on the last several engine's I've used them on.
BE SURE to communicate your thrust needs with RJE. Type 4 maine bearings are getting really hard to find with any non-standard thrust oversize. Do not touch the thrust surface of the case unless ABSOLUTELY necessary.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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Silverline are supposedly the best main bearings currently available excluding old NOS German stuff. They are steel-backed and made in Mexico.
People in the engines forum say that the mains are dimensionally on point and that jibes with my recent experience in installing a set in my engine that's going together.
I would not sweat using Silverline mains. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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white74westy Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011 Posts: 777
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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Alright...where were we?
So I sent the case out to Rocky Jennings. You might recall that I was told it was going to be several weeks before he would be able to get to my case. He said that once it arrived, he would inspect it to make sure it was still usable, and let me know what work he thought might be needed. Upon inspection, I would get an estimate of the work to be done, and that a 50% deposist would be required to get started.
Here's what I sent him:
I think someone with an eagle eye may have mentioned it earlier in the thread, that the "ear" had been broken off of the breather tower. I cannot remember how it happened. Either way, that is of little consequence now. It was damaged and needed to be repaired, before we could go any further!
I was nicely surprised with an email earlier this week from Rocky, with the following attachments:
Work has begun:
Welded up:
Case parting line looks good:
I received the estimate for the work yet to be done. Line-bore, drill and tap plugs, deck the case. I can't wait!!!
I also asked him about bearings. He mentioned that he uses Silverline bearings and orders them as needed?
Any feelings/opinions on the matter? I've got NOS KS bearings, however, none of them will fit the cam or the case, since both will have been cut.
I would love to be able to source some NOS German bearings!
As soon as I get the case back, I'll be sure to post up the pics of the work that was done.
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white74westy Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011 Posts: 777
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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Clatter wrote: |
Dang,
Here I was all excited to hear the details of a Rocky Jennings stock type 4 case!
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Settle down Clatter! See below |
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white74westy Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011 Posts: 777
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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There's so much to speak to, regarding the material referenced above, specific to taking accurate measurements. My neighbor that has been helping me with all of it is very fine with his touch. He's had years to develop that sense. This is a guy that is used to measuring very, very accurately. When Clatter and others mention some of the units of measure, I believe it is hard for some people to perceive just how small we're talking!!! In some cases, less than the thickness of a hair! Clearly I have a lot of practicing to do! Anybody can throw a mic on something and get a measurement. That's easy...I've already done that. Getting consistent, accurate, and repeatable measurements is a completely different story. My hat goes off to those who do it and do it well!
Oh and BTW, I remeber being told specifically not to use the wheel on the end of the mic. |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7549 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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^^^Straight-cut cam gears?^^^
Cool to have your bus sound like it has a blower, I guess..
Dang,
Here I was all excited to hear the details of a Rocky Jennings stock type 4 case!
_________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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white74westy Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011 Posts: 777
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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mike77777 wrote: |
been following your thread, good project. Have had my 77 for 10 or so years now. John @ Aircooled.net was very helpful with dual carb setup, had a single weber setup when bought. 2000 miles on full rebuild 2.0 liter now, it all takes time and attention to detail for me. Good luck in the new year!
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Thank you! |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7549 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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Like was said before,
The standards don’t matter.
What the real number is, who cares?
You only need the clearance from journal to bearing.
Rocky will make sure the case is cut to spec,
And hopefully the bearing manufacturer will make sure the bearing is to spec.
Since you’re not cuttting the case or making the bearings,
All you can do is check the crush.
And, again, it’s just the difference, or delta,
Between the main saddle ID and bearing OD.
You just try and measure best you can and hopefully look for some crush.
Having to sand down the halves of the center main just a *tad* to close the case gap is usually a good sign.
I wrote up a bit on a junky type 1 I did a while back,
FWIW..
Maybe makes more sense with pics..
You can ignore 95% of it; being type 1 garbage.
Just clean everything up and do the measurements several times.
Write the numbers down,
Then hide them from yourself and do it again later after sleep.
See if the numbers repeat..
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=40 _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7549 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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You’ll see these little calibration tags on mics that were certified..
_________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7549 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:53 am Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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At many shops there will be inspectors coming around to certify that measuring equipment meets standards.
Having all of this going on in the first shop I worked,
My (China) standards were more finely-finished for accuracy.
It was fun to have all of these really anal guys getting my mic standards to 1/2 a tenth or so,
Even if I wasn’t that good.
If your standards are at a certain level,
And the mic repeats on a standard at each end of its travel,
Then it will be accurate, cheap China or not.
I never knew anyone who ever used the clutch, FWIW. _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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The ratchet thimble seems to be an attempt to standardize what the instrument does and eliminate individual differences in “feel” from the equation. I find that when I use it, it overtightens enough to leave marks on the journals when I remove it. At least in calibrating with a standard, the standard seems to deflect when over- tightened.
The more technically minded videos or things I’ve read show using the ratchet on the thimble. Videos I’ve seen made by real machinists show using the main thimble to feel the surfaces as it is loosened/tightened.
There is a specific way to hold it, but it seems like the most important thing seems to be developing this feel however it works out best. I’m thinking it’s something like using feeler gauges. The surfaces of the micrometer should slide across the journals with a slight resistance...one of those things that requires a suspension of thinking...once you have the right feel. I think it might help to have different standards or blocks to at least know accurately one measures. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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Quote: |
Us fussy aircraft types use mics with a light hand vs. automotive guys, |
not all are heavy handed. The ones who had good mentors know how to hold, and use a mic to get correct readings. I think some folks (not you) rely on the small thumb wheel to get readings rather than by feel as they should. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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mike77777 Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2009 Posts: 119 Location: portland or
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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been following your thread, good project. Have had my 77 for 10 or so years now. John @ Aircooled.net was very helpful with dual carb setup, had a single weber setup when bought. 2000 miles on full rebuild 2.0 liter now, it all takes time and attention to detail for me. Good luck in the new year!
_________________ patience and putty |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7549 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:43 am Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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A couple thoughts..
Most crank grinders know how to use a mic.
If you have one of these expensive machines,
And are making a living using it,
You know how to read a mic.
That said,
The measurements I get, being trained as a prototype machinist,
Indicate that crank grinders are heavy-handed with their mics.
All freshly-ground cranks seem to measure right when you smash the thimble down on the journal tight.
Us fussy aircraft types use mics with a light hand vs. automotive guys,
Especially if they are in V8 world..
See if your crank isn’t the same..
Now,
If the crank has been worn and/or polished,
Then this won’t be the case, the opposite in fact,
And you’re likely to be a tenth or more under from exact spec.
In the end,
Because of bearing crush and variations,
The actual number doesn’t matter, just the clearance to the bearing.
FWIW,
Adrian’s heads were known for a long time to be good heads.
I’d run a set of those with reasonable confidence.
But,
I’d be keeping an eye on valve adjustment..
No matter what, as long as you’re running solid lifters,
You will know in advance if there’s any issues with the heads,
As the valve adjustment will move.
Main thing that might go wrong with heads, that’s the builder’s fault will be seats.
And you’re very likely to see that coming from a long ways away if you’re watching your valves.
(Every 3,000 miles at oil change time).
There’s also the chance of guides being wrong,
Especially tight,
But tight would have showed by now.
Loose will take a while,
But, again, you’ll know they’re going by the sound if you’re paying attention.
All said,
I’d still even vote for a set of Adrian heads vs. new stock AMC.
I’ve seen quite a few of his heads and no issues.
Oh, and, Glad ‘orwell84’ is following this,
It all overlaps really well.
Saves me some typing! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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white74westy Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011 Posts: 777
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Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:26 am Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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orwell84 wrote: |
Just to make sure I am following you...as I am in the same place...
You pulled apart an engine built by a reputable builder because of low oil pressure and found the crazy ball valve thing and out of spec case.
You started with a crank that had already been ground 1 undersize (.010) and measured it before and after polish. You also had a spare 1.7 crank that also looks like it was ground one undersize at some point.
You had your rods balanced, rebushed, etc.
You also had the machine shop check the weight of pistons, pins etc. I know they are AA pistons. Were they new or used? Did the machine shop do any other checks or work on them?
Sorry to jump in on your thread, but it has been really helpful to read along.
I have the exact same hope of going camping with my family by the end of June. All my metalwork and paint deadlines are out the window as more than anything I would like to build a reliable engine and not worry when taking longer trips.
You look like your on the right track. |
You are absolutely welcome to jump in any time. I'm happy to have people do so, particularly if we end up helping others down the road, when it is their turn.
There were so many inconsistencies in the engine build that I received, so I have a hard time calling him "reputable." Everything that is required to build an ACVW engine, can and will be done properly by the owner, as long as he or she is willing to invest the time and effort in getting it right. There are inumberable stories about just how forgiving these platforms can be, even when things are not ideal. Amazingly, the engine will still try to perform. That in mind, if one is willing to do due dilligence, I'm confident that a good working engine can and will be built. Nobody is going to go over your stuff to a standard that will make you happy, better than you will!!! That is the takeaway lesson that I've learned here. You can pay people to do the work, however, the vast majority are under the pressure of deadlines, that allows them to pump out work that is satisfactory at best. Others that don't adhere to those standards and take great pride in keeping their names' clean, will adjust peoples' expectations specific to time-frames and expense. You will get what you pay for. Conversely, you should expect to get exactly what you paid for if you paid a premium, and should be able to hold the seller to the standard that he or she claims. Apologies, rant over. Didn't mean for it to sound that way.
Yes the crank had been cut out west, while it was at the engine builder's place. He sends them out to be done. I had it poished when I had the rods re-bushed etc. The 1.7 has also been cut, but is yet to be polished. Saved for another day/project. Not sure may even get rid of it, somewhere down the road.
I ordered new pistons and liners from John at aircooled.net. They came balanced to within 0.5 grams. John clearly knows what he's doing and I figured paying him the $ to make sure that things would be acceptable out of the box was a good start. I checked all the weights etc. once I took posession of them. Very happy with the results! Hopefully we'll get some good news from Rocky, with regards to the case.
I'm actually considering selling the heads too. I must confess, that from all outward appearances, they seem to have been done well. I had AMC heads reworked. They were ported and polished, 3 angle job, new valves etc. The engine pulled really nicely. Temps etc were good. As I've stated many times before, I just got tired of the nagging feeling that the next time I turned the key, and pulled away was going be the time that the engine finally grenaded because of the oil pressure issues. |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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Just to make sure I am following you...as I am in the same place...
You pulled apart an engine built by a reputable builder because of low oil pressure and found the crazy ball valve thing and out of spec case.
You started with a crank that had already been ground 1 undersize (.010) and measured it before and after polish. You also had a spare 1.7 crank that also looks like it was ground one undersize at some point.
You had your rods balanced, rebushed, etc.
You also had the machine shop check the weight of pistons, pins etc. I know they are AA pistons. Were they new or used? Did the machine shop do any other checks or work on them?
Sorry to jump in on your thread, but it has been really helpful to read along.
I have the exact same hope of going camping with my family by the end of June. All my metalwork and paint deadlines are out the window as more than anything I would like to build a reliable engine and not worry when taking longer trips.
You look like your on the right track. |
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white74westy Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011 Posts: 777
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Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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Clatter wrote: |
You would think that the one proper noun a phone should know..
In all seriousness,
I'd be very interested to see what exactly Rocky Jennings does with a stock VW case for a type 4 bus.
Want to see if he keeps track of how many thou it takes to clean up the deck,
or if he line-bores the mains 'for good measure'.
Did he want the bearings sent out with the case?
Also lifter bores,
Because he sleeves them for racing apps,
You can bet he'll be checking those carefully..
Many times,
A really good tech will know what needs done,
What helps,
And what's best left alone.
Experience teaches this;
It's a newb who does everything every time, dig?
Keep us posted on how this all plays out.
I'm so interested in how this particular guy approaches this case.
In all likelihood,
It's probably a total 'yawner' for him,
What with his Oxyboxer type 5 builds and all..
Probably a deck, line-bore, and that's it. |
Yup. I suspect we'll cross that bridge once we get there. I will most certainly ask for all the pertinent details, at the very least, for the sake of posterity.
No bearings were sent, as I wasn't sure what would be required, post machining. I will defer to his expertise, specific to whatever is needed. At the moment, I'm having it align bored, decked, tapped and plugged and a piece that was broken off the breather tower welded back in place. I'll wait to hear if anything else is required. As always, I will post any and all data I receive so that there is a record of it. |
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white74westy Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011 Posts: 777
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Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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notchboy wrote: |
How many Colors Light did you have before you posted? |
I missed it the first time I read Clatter's post. |
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white74westy Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011 Posts: 777
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Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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Clatter wrote: |
Colors Light works in a pinch..
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How cool is that kid?!?!
He's going to have some awesome stories to tell [when its his turn] and even better memories, I'm sure! |
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white74westy Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011 Posts: 777
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Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread |
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orwell84 wrote: |
Was your crankshaft ground to an undersize? I am trying to figure out measuring at this point. Nailing down that thousandth so I’m confident in it. The feel part...whether I make the micrometer tight so that it takes a little effort to get to get off the journal or whether I set it so it slides easily with just a little resistance is the difference between the low and high end of the spec. |
Yes, the crank was ground.
As we've written about before, the whole measuring thing, at least done properly, is definitely an artform! My crankshaft was somehow able to magically grow, after I got it back from the machine shop.
It can most certainly be frustrating, particularly when you get to the ten thousandths. |
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