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'78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue
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smitty1976bus
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:01 pm    Post subject: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

Hello all,

Have '78 2.0L EFI, which has been running great, but always burned just a bit of oil. Recently, it's been burning a lot of oil. While I fear the worst, I hope for the best. Last week I had a vacuum leak, so went in a examined and fixed the issue (AAR issue, fixed.. pretty sure). Bus back to running good, still a slight vacuum leak, but running well enough. While fixing the leak, I noticed that there was some strange oil like stuff (like a water/oil milkshake film), all inside the oil breather and oil breather vacuum line. I cleaned it up, and didn't think much of it. But today I dove into the engine hoping to find something to stop the oil burning. This is what's in the oil breather and tube.. again:

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Is this normal? Or whats causing it? I took out my plugs too, to see if theyre covered in oil, but they seem ok (but i'm not an expert):
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All except plug #3:
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It was a strange color, almost the same color as the strange oily film.. Not sure what to think..

Is there suppose to be some filter inside the oil breather? I feel like I've read somewhere that people put some filter in there to prevent this... but now i can't find anything about that.

Also, I've read a lot of forums on EFI and the PCV valve, and i'm pretty sure that rubber valve thing is gone, and it's just a straight breather at this point. Is there any need to have it feed into the S-Boot

Thanks
SS
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

The "mayonnaise" is an emulsion of water and oil. It tends to happen when you do a lot of short trips and don't really get the engine warmed up fully. Water vapor is a natural byproduct of combustion and some will always get into the crankcase. The mayonnaise can form in places that are relatively cool (like a breather tube) where the water doesn't get fully evaporated from the oil.

This has nothing to do with how much oil it's burning, FYI. It just means you aren't getting the engine warmed up fully.

BUT: if it's burning oil because of bad rings, for example, then that's more blowby into the crankcase = more water vapor into the crankcase = more water to mix into the oil.

I see a leak down test in your future.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

Good answer

Yes, in my opinion you should top off the oil and go for a 100 mile drive. Then check again your oil level under the same conditions and see if your chocolate milk has disappeared. Continue to do this to see if thereís a trend towards oil usage.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

as others said - you have water in your oil. There are two fixes - drive the engine until it gets hot or replace the oil. If you lack a thermostat that is the cause along with short trips.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

In a cold climate having engine snot in the PVC valve and hoses is pretty normal. You want to make sure nothing gets blocked with either the snot or with ice.

Two if your plugs look oil free while the other two may be seeing a very small amount of oil.

Crankcase ventilation is very important, I lent my Subaru powered Vanagon to my daughter for 4ish years. The van did fine for her in the Colorado, where it was used for a variety of purposes; shopping, trips, etc. but when she moved to eastern Oregon, the one winter the night time lows day after day were running about -20įF and she was only using the van to drive three miles to work and back so the engine was never really getting warm thus ice and frozen snot were building up in the ventilation hoses. One day the hoses closed entirely and all the oil blew out of the engine in about a mile of driving locking the engine up.
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smitty1976bus
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

Thank you for all the replies.

sjbartnik wrote:
The "mayonnaise" is an emulsion of water and oil. It tends to happen when you do a lot of short trips and don't really get the engine warmed up fully. Water vapor is a natural byproduct of combustion and some will always get into the crankcase. The mayonnaise can form in places that are relatively cool (like a breather tube) where the water doesn't get fully evaporated from the oil.

This has nothing to do with how much oil it's burning, FYI. It just means you aren't getting the engine warmed up fully.

BUT: if it's burning oil because of bad rings, for example, then that's more blowby into the crankcase = more water vapor into the crankcase = more water to mix into the oil.

I see a leak down test in your future.


Looked at the thermostat linkage, and looks like the cable slipped a bit, so the flaps were stuck 1/2 open, which is causing my slow heat up times I bet. Re-adjusted.

I feel a leak down test is in my future as well.. with results I'm not looking forward to.

aeromech wrote:
Good answer

Yes, in my opinion you should top off the oil and go for a 100 mile drive. Then check again your oil level under the same conditions and see if your chocolate milk has disappeared. Continue to do this to see if thereís a trend towards oil usage.



I changed my oil, and buttoned it all back up. Damn it runs good right now, hate that it's burning oil. Anyways, here's the oil level before I went on a trip:

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And here it is after about 50 miels:

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A noticeable drop. Not sure how much it is, maybe a 1/2 quart? This trip the engine oil got up to temp much faster than it had been, which is good. Cruised around for about an hour, got the oil nice and hot, well around 200. Didn't really notice any smoke out the tailpipe, but guess it was there.

I pulled off the oil breather and there was oil in the breather line and some in the breather it self. enough to pour a little trickle out when you tip it over. Is this normal? Is there supposed to be a stream of oil in the breather line? I had cleaned it nicely before the trip, so it's all from this short trip.

I also pulled the plugs again, and all looked good, except for cylinder 1:

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Black deposits on it. Not wet. Just black. And it's the only one like it..... bad rings?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

Sorry, Iíve lost track. Is your engine fresh with just a few miles or is it fully broken in. Breather pressure will be higher until itís broken in
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
Sorry, Iíve lost track. Is your engine fresh with just a few miles or is it fully broken in. Breather pressure will be higher until itís broken in


Very broken in. The engine has about 100k on it.

Short story on it: bought bus with 90k on it from someone who just wanted the motor, he took motor out of bus. Then i convinced him to sell me the motor. Got it. Put motor back in bus. PO claimed he rebuilt the heads, but didn't touch the lower end. Last summer I found out it has solid lifters, not hydros, so I'm not sure the complete history on engine.

With perfect hindsight vision, I can see that I probably should have rebuilt the engine when it was out of the bus 4 years ago.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

smitty1976bus wrote:
aeromech wrote:
Sorry, Iíve lost track. Is your engine fresh with just a few miles or is it fully broken in. Breather pressure will be higher until itís broken in


Very broken in. The engine has about 100k on it.

Short story on it: bought bus with 90k on it from someone who just wanted the motor, he took motor out of bus. Then i convinced him to sell me the motor. Got it. Put motor back in bus. PO claimed he rebuilt the heads, but didn't touch the lower end. Last summer I found out it has solid lifters, not hydros, so I'm not sure the complete history on engine.

With perfect hindsight vision, I can see that I probably should have rebuilt the engine when it was out of the bus 4 years ago.


probably valve guides if the heads have 70,000 or more miles on them.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

It sounds like you are actually sucking up quite a bit of oil from the breather. The engine will burn this....even if your rings and guides are fine.

No....there should not be a stream of oil running out of the tube.

How is the diaphragm in the PCV valve?

One thing you can do that will help keep some of the oil in....is buy some copper chore boy pads

https://www.amazon.com/Chore-Boy-Copper-Scouring-Pad-2ct/dp/B006K3XS5A

Get the pure copper ones like these...not the steel ones and not no name copper plated steel. This way if a small piece comes loose and goes into the engine...it is soft enough to not hurt anything.

Stuff the box under the oil breather with one or two. Oil that is sucking past gets wet onto the fibers and does not get sucked out. Its similar in effect to the "coir" fiber in the oil bath air cleaners.

Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
probably valve guides if the heads have 70,000 or more miles on them.


I was skeptical of the PO rebuilding these heads.. especially last year when I had to replace my pushrod tube gaskets.... they looked like they had never been replaced before.


raygreenwood wrote:
It sounds like you are actually sucking up quite a bit of oil from the breather. The engine will burn this....even if your rings and guides are fine.

No....there should not be a stream of oil running out of the tube.

How is the diaphragm in the PCV valve?

One thing you can do that will help keep some of the oil in....is buy some copper chore boy pads

https://www.amazon.com/Chore-Boy-Copper-Scouring-Pad-2ct/dp/B006K3XS5A

Get the pure copper ones like these...not the steel ones and not no name copper plated steel. This way if a small piece comes loose and goes into the engine...it is soft enough to not hurt anything.

Stuff the box under the oil breather with one or two. Oil that is sucking past gets wet onto the fibers and does not get sucked out. Its similar in effect to the "coir" fiber in the oil bath air cleaners.

Ray


Yessss, that would be perfect! Iím gonna buy some of that bad boys and hope for the best.

As for the diaphragm in the PCv valve, pretty sure itís gone. Canít find a replacement anywhere.

Is the oil shooting out the breather because of high crank pressure? Would those valve cover breathers work to bring pressure down?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

If you let the engine idle for very long before pulling the plugs, then it would be normal for them to soot up a bit. If your idle mixture is off that will soot them up worse.

Vanagon 2.1L Waterboxer engines have a 6mm(IIRC) orifice in the breather hose. The orifice keeps the intake from exerting too much vacuum on the crankcase thus drawing out more oil with the blowby gases than it should. I have never tried adding the orifice to an air cooled engine to see how it works, but I would suspect it would, though "tuning" might be necessary, tuning that would include maybe experimenting with different size orifices and adjusting the idle mixture. Adding the orifice might be enough to offset a bad PCV valve.

Be sure to pull your dipstick once to wipe it down and then a second time to check the level. If your dipstick seals well to the tube and you don't wipe the stick down first you may get a high reading, usually when cold. On a recently run engine you need to let the engine sit for several minutes before checking the oil to let the oil return to the sump before checking it.

Running synthetic oil can sometimes reduce oil usage.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

if this is an FI engine then the diaphragm being gone will cause oil to be drawn into the intake because of the way the system is plumbed. If this is a carb engine with a breather to the top of the filter then it won't matter much.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
If you let the engine idle for very long before pulling the plugs, then it would be normal for them to soot up a bit. If your idle mixture is off that will soot them up worse.

Vanagon 2.1L Waterboxer engines have a 6mm(IIRC) orifice in the breather hose. The orifice keeps the intake from exerting too much vacuum on the crankcase thus drawing out more oil with the blowby gases than it should. I have never tried adding the orifice to an air cooled engine to see how it works, but I would suspect it would, though "tuning" might be necessary, tuning that would include maybe experimenting with different size orifices and adjusting the idle mixture. Adding the orifice might be enough to offset a bad PCV valve.

Be sure to pull your dipstick once to wipe it down and then a second time to check the level. If your dipstick seals well to the tube and you don't wipe the stick down first you may get a high reading, usually when cold. On a recently run engine you need to let the engine sit for several minutes before checking the oil to let the oil return to the sump before checking it.

Running synthetic oil can sometimes reduce oil usage.


SGKent wrote:
if this is an FI engine then the diaphragm being gone will cause oil to be drawn into the intake because of the way the system is plumbed. If this is a carb engine with a breather to the top of the filter then it won't matter much.


Running fuel injection, so a bad psv valve could be the culprit. It all started happening (high oil loss) when I fixed my vacuum leaks. Had the idle screw screwed all the way in, to offset the high idle. Once the vacuum leak was fixed, I backed off the idle screw, and that's when I noticed high oil loss. Could be sending more vacuum into the oil breather tube.....?

Is the idle mixture done on the Air Flow Meter? If that's the case, that could be why my plug is black. It's a fairly new AFM, put it on last summer, and I don't have the tools to properly tune it, so it could use a nice tune. But it's been running good.

Will try the copper pad in the oil breather tonight, and re-do the test. See what happens .

Thanks
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

you need to find a good used PCV valve. The way you test them is suck on the small hole on the top. If it holds vacuum then it is good. Otherwise the engine sucks air thru the case and messes with your fuel to air ratio. It will also burn oil.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
you need to find a good used PCV valve. The way you test them is suck on the small hole on the top. If it holds vacuum then it is good. Otherwise the engine sucks air thru the case and messes with your fuel to air ratio. It will also burn oil.


Yup, definitely going to need to replace the PCV valve. I tried the copper scrubbing pad in the oil breather/area. Don't like it, scares me too much, ha:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Going to have to get a new PCV. After doing to digging on where to find a new PCV unit, I came up empty. i don't think anyone makes a new one for this engine. Did some looking around on thesamba, and found some good threads:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=251133
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Kudos to SGKent and Wildthings, you guys have been helping EFI noobs like me with PCV issues for a while. Thank you.

I'm either going to try and fix the diaphragm in my PCV using this similar type material:
https://www.amazon.com/Ensun-Diaphragm-Repair-Memb...k129040-20

Or just put an Audi style PCV in line with my oil breather line:
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/audi-volkswagen-v...HFEALw_wcB

Or, I'll get bored waiting for either one to ship out and do something completely different.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

I don't think sticking the scrub pad up into the breather itself is a very good idea, as it gets carboned up, the inlet to the breather is going to be restricted more and more over time and suddenly you might have a problem of too high a case pressure.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:57 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

the copper is a ghetto fix. It will sulfate and dissolve over time.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
I don't think sticking the scrub pad up into the breather itself is a very good idea, as it gets carboned up, the inlet to the breather is going to be restricted more and more over time and suddenly you might have a problem of too high a case pressure.


Exactly. If that 'mayonnaise' caked up the breather and tube, it's def going to seal up the scrub pad.

I will not use the scrub pad. Nope.

SGKent wrote:
the copper is a ghetto fix. It will sulfate and dissolve over time.


I have some ghetto fixes on the bus, but this is just too much for me, going a different route.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: '78 EFI burning oil - oil breather issue Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
the copper is a ghetto fix. It will sulfate and dissolve over time.


Uh....no....it actually wont.

I have used them for a couple of hundred throusand miles. Going to fixed orifice PCV once the 914 pcv's were found to be defective (unobtanium anyway)....these worked superbly. And....its not my idea.....thousands of type 4 owners use this. Do a search.

While I agree fix the PCV if you possibly can.......the "Chore boy" pad is no more of a ghetto fix than any of the 10's of millions of cars that used a..... PCV FILTER.....to do the exact same thing in the 1970s.

Its no more of a ghetto fix.....than the "coir" fiber inside of the oil bath air cleaner.....doing exactly 100% the same "action".....being an oil catcher. Its no more or less ghetto than the cheesy zig zag louver, oil separator set up used in the VW type 1 generator stand (except this works far better).

Sulfate over time? You mean "turn green?..... Laughing highly unlikely. Never seen that in the 30 years or so I have had them in type 4 engines.....oh....unless you dont change your oil for about five years.

Just like the coir fiber in your oil bath air cleaner.....these pads constantly get washed with oil and drip down.

Bear in mind......if you use this.....its part of REGULAR maintenance. Pull it out and spray the damn thing off with carb spray every couple of oil changes. If by chance you dont drive much.....and it gets some "mayonnaise" on it....and some green spots......jeez.....its maybe 60 cents? Throw it away and put a new one in!

Wilthings.....no....it does not get carbon'd up. Actually ...unless you are seeing temps in the crankcase gases of about 500 to 570 F....which is the required minimum temp range for carbon growth with the right gases and products.....not likely. However.....to your point....what you DO see normally grow in the breather box area is baked on oil sludge....frequently mistaken for carbon. I have not seen any more or less with this product usage.

Smitty1967bus......all you need is a single layer pad laying down in the bottom of the square well. There is virtually "0" worry with getting anything in the engine. Dont cut ot....dont tear it. Its made of a single fiber sheet.

Not poking at you guys 😉....but this is another one of those issues I always laugh about with the type 4 engine bus crowd.....of all of the other techniques used by the 914/912 and 411/412 crowd.....who were using the engines before they got put in buses.....and are using techniques that you guys never look into or research outside of bus forums.

But here is an example of others using the same technique....and in the bus forum no less!

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=450525&highlight=chore-boy

Its hard to search for due to the mundane words "chore boy" or chore-boy.....but there must be hundreds of comments in the forums here and in the STF.

Ray
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