Author |
Message |
E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6563 Location: Westfalia, Earth
|
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Sodo wrote: |
I've heard of fairly new tires failing too but you never really know what that tire has experienced. Hit a curb, someone drove it flat for awhile. Perhaps a defect.
Tires are pretty danged SAFE, if you ask me. I don't hear of problems. Very very seldom, considering the number of tires there are out there (and that i know) they are reliable.
Statistically the newer tire has less chance to get damaged therefore probably safer. But an old tire is tested/proven to NOT have manufacturing defects.
Plus people LIKE new tires, I do. I just can't remember what it was like on my van but I will soon. |
100% agreed, tires these days are way overbuilt for the tasks they face.
This partly comes straight out of any corporation's legal department. _________________ 84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9613 Location: Western WA
|
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
E1 wrote: |
This partly comes straight out of any corporation's legal department. |
I suspect a tire's date and expiration was necessary to limit legal liability.
But the tire has to last much longer than that, otherwise people would be reporting actual age-related failures, and it would be bad for the brand. As long as the tire still has tread, consumers expect the tire to be safe and will drive on them.
Anyway Nitrogen would be fun if it was easy like the 80% mix. A guy with Nitrogen would be unstoppable, could prob get away with a few months past on the tire date for example. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
Back to top |
|
|
0to60in6min Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006 Posts: 3416 Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
|
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Quote: |
This partly comes straight out of any corporation's legal department. |
yes and yes... and not only legal but $$ too... they sell more tires that way.. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22668 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
|
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Merian wrote: |
djkeev wrote: |
do tires aired in bone dry Arizona experience smaller pressure swings than a tire aired in the humid Northeast?
I've always viewed Nitrogen as a "Gucci" gas for those who have too much money and/or like to show off how trendy they are.
Dave |
PV = nRT
Gucci Gas is a good one |
Big PVnRT in Alabama recently _________________ .ssS! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6563 Location: Westfalia, Earth
|
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Absolutely Sodo, several areas of risk mitigation going on there.
0to60, spot on -- and fear of failure with anything so vital as tires is one great motivator to err on the safe side -- whether justified or not. _________________ 84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22668 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
|
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Tom Powell wrote: |
Just to be silly and add a bone of contention to be picked at:
Do tires age faster on alloy rims than on steel rims?
Awaiting a reply from Abscate.
Aloha
tp |
Your going to cut those tires on Occam's razor.
More importantly , if you 12 tires on alloy rims and one on a steel Tim, how many balance measurements does it take to identify the odd one if you are blind and can only tell the difference by mass? _________________ .ssS! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7472 Location: WA/ID
|
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Sodo wrote: |
Has anyone even heard of even one failure that was age, NOT damaged by under-inflation or overload? Not just the interwebs but a real person, who does not overload or under-inflate had a tire failure by age? A tire that wasn't all cracked or 1961 etc, but like 10 years old? 20 years old (that's 1998 folks). What brand of tire is this? What vehicle, what usage. Let's be clear and specific, not just hearsay cus some poor folks are spending hard-earned money (that they should prob save in a war-chest to rebuild their transaxle properly!).
|
I don't know if the Nokian tire below failed because of age or something else but it failed. A few facts:
- the sidewall split and the tire was not long for this world
- the tread looked like it had 5-10K miles remaining
- it was seven years past the date of mfr. (exact date is in some other thread here); Nokian warranties tires to 6 years
- In the two years I ran the tire it never was low on pressure, overloaded or run into a hazard
- The PO is a darn good PO. You'd love to buy a van from him. He's super-protective of his wife and kid. I'd bet $100 that he never ran the tire under or over inflated.
- The sidewalls weren't cracked.
- This was used on a 1990 Vanagon
- It lived in the cloudy PNW and was often garaged
- I still trust Nokian and am on my second set since retiring this set
- It was on an aluminum rim, filled with ordinary air. (not fact: the air and aluminum rim may have cross-linked sulfide trestles into a pandamagorsmic tire consuming frenzy and kicked the sidewall to the future where Occam's razor cut it).
This tire may have been defective but it was also a year past it's expiration date. It also convinced me to replace any and all tires before their expiration date (even on the moto that barely gets 1K miles per year).
FWIW, YMMV.
_________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
|
Back to top |
|
|
E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6563 Location: Westfalia, Earth
|
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Why does the tread look melted?
I'd suspect under-inflated or otherwise it got really hot, even once, to blow a sidewall like that.
If not verifiably caused from heat or other operator error, for me personally there's no way I'd trust another one. _________________ 84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7472 Location: WA/ID
|
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
E1 wrote: |
... there's no way I'd trust another one. |
Of course it shouldnt have been trusted. It was about a year older than the mfr. said it should be expected to live. Tires arent to be trusted when they age past their expiration dates. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
|
Back to top |
|
|
E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6563 Location: Westfalia, Earth
|
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Sorry, but for my safety that's just not acceptable.
Glad you dodged a bullet, though Jim! _________________ 84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Butcher Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015 Posts: 1285 Location: Right Here
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Where are you getting this 80% nitrogen? I can only find 78% in my area.
Nitrogen in tires is just another sales pitch that solve problems that do not exist. Tires wear out because of use or time. I have never seen one wear inside out. Its from the outside in. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
From the report: Effects of Nitrogen Inflationn on Tire Aging and Performance
http://www.branick.com/Nitrogen%20-%20What%20you%2...0Study.pdf
"The overall conclusion of the study is: When N2 is used as the inflation media, the change in rubber properties is significantly slowed down or even halted. From a practical standpoint it is important to note that the presence of 1 atmosphere of air in the 96% nitrogen inflated tires did not significantly affect the results, as compared to the 99.9% nitrogen inflated tire. This is important for the average consumer because the need to purge existing tires completely of air before filling with nitrogen may not be necessary. Another conclusion is that the oxidation of the steel belt rubber is truly driven from the contained air pressure inside a normal passenger or light truck tire. The skim region may be oxidized slightly from outside the tire when filled nitrogen, but the
rate of degradation is significantly lower than when the tire is filled with air. The wedge rubber, on the other hand, is in a sufficiently thick part of the tire, and is not nearly as susceptible to oxidation from the outside. The converse of this conclusion, therefore, is that oxidative aging can be accelerated by the use of oxygen enriched filling gases in the tire cavity without changing the mechanism of degradation in the tires internal components." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6563 Location: Westfalia, Earth
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Great info WT, Thank You. _________________ 84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22668 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
The six years comes from the auto industry, since they don't have a stake in the rubber business
The tire industry consensus seems to be inspect annually after 5, out of service no longer than 10 years from date of manufacture. Of course, damage or tread wear can take out a tire well before this.
There is no reason to throw out 6 year old tires purely on clock _________________ .ssS! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6563 Location: Westfalia, Earth
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Yep.
I think the real question is "Six years of what, where, how used, etc.?"
It seems logical to presume some worst-case scenarios were used when determining when a tire becomes unsafe... not to mention brand and quality. _________________ 84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
scottyrocks Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016 Posts: 2665 Location: Long Island, NY
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Butcher wrote: |
Where are you getting this 80% nitrogen? I can only find 78% in my area. |
We have to pay extra for that here. _________________ If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them on some level there's no rational grounds for it.
D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Notice that the first site there mentions the partial pressure of oxygen in the tire:
Quote: |
Tire failures can result from thermo-oxidative
degradation (Tire Aging) caused by:
Time
Ambient and operating temperatures
Partial pressure of O2 in a tire
Flex fatigue
Construction and compounding characteristics |
The partial pressure of oxygen in the atmosphere is about 3 psi, while the partial pressure of oxygen in a tire inflated to 45 psi with air is 12 psi and to 60 psi the partial pressure is a full atmosphere. There is no question in my mind that that level of oxygen is going to quicken the degradation of a tire by a very high level. Tire aging may not be directly proportional to the partial pressure of oxygen but it is greatly affected by it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SCM Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 3118 Location: Bozeman MT
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
Wildthings wrote: |
From the report: Effects of Nitrogen Inflationn on Tire Aging and Performance |
Having recently replaced the 11 year old tires on my SUV mostly because of UV aging of the sidewall, I personally don't think nitrogen would cause noticeable improvements for me. My mind is made up.
But, I really question the control used in the study WT linked to. Why would they compare 96% and 99% nitrogen to a tire filled with 50/50 nitrogen/oxygen (resulting in around 40% oxygen inside the tire) when the atmosphere and any air that you would put inside your tire is only about 20% oxygen?
If they found a significant difference in tire longevity etc. could it be because the tire subjected to "oxygenated" conditions had double the amount of oxygen in it than one would expect in real life?
It's like me saying that water is poisonous because drinking gallons at a time can cause hyponatremia. _________________ '91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
|
|
SCM wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
From the report: Effects of Nitrogen Inflationn on Tire Aging and Performance |
Having recently replaced the 11 year old tires on my SUV mostly because of UV aging of the sidewall, I personally don't think nitrogen would cause noticeable improvements for me. My mind is made up.
But, I really question the control used in the study WT linked to. Why would they compare 96% and 99% nitrogen to a tire filled with 50/50 nitrogen/oxygen (resulting in around 40% oxygen inside the tire) when the atmosphere and any air that you would put inside your tire is only about 20% oxygen?
If they found a significant difference in tire longevity etc. could it be because the tire subjected to "oxygenated" conditions had double the amount of oxygen in it than one would expect in real life?
It's like me saying that water is poisonous because drinking gallons at a time can cause hyponatremia. |
They also test tires with straight air (21% O2, 78% N2, 1% other) in them, so testing tires with 44% oxygen and testing unmounted tires just adds additional data points. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|