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i_luv_my_bus76
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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 Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:23 am Post subject: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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I have a 69 bug with the non doghouse shrouding and stock oil cooler...
In am rebuilding my engine...87 pistons and cheater cam...
I am on a budget and was wondering if getting rid of the oil cooler and installing an external cooler would cool the engine as effective as the doghouse upgrade |
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jwp67
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2012
Posts: 655
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:44 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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I believe it would make a difference. I have seen some larger displacement engines with cooling problems solved like that. Its funny, I am looking at doing the very same thing with my 69. Think about adding a gauge in the dash so you can keep an eye on the temperature. Thats the only true way to know.
There are lots of different kits to cool with. I hope someone chimes in with their personal experiences so we can find something for both of us.
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21 million of these cars were built,and everyone of them were sold...kinda astounding given how unreliable they are.---johhnypan |
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i_luv_my_bus76
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:48 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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| jwp67 wrote: |
I believe it would make a difference. I have seen some larger displacement engines with cooling problems solved like that. Its funny, I am looking at doing the very same thing with my 69. Think about adding a gauge in the dash so you can keep an eye on the temperature. Thats the only true way to know.
There are lots of different kits to cool with. I hope someone chimes in with their personal experiences so we can find something for both of us. |
Awesome!!!! I've been told great minds think alike
I hope someone chimes in as well...if I get any info outside of the samba I will update the topic...and I hope you do the same
Good luck! |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:46 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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| I guess it depends on what you were wanting to do with an external cooler? Any one I've ever installed that worked well was one of the Mesa style flat 96 plate ones with a thermostatically controlled cooling fan. It will provide enough cooling to replace the original cooler, but if you're trying to save money, the og doghouse stuff would probably be less expensive. I would imagine you would have at least a few hundred dollars in the cooler, fan, thermostat, fittings, and rubber hose. If you're wanting to do AN fittings, and braided hose, add another couple hundred on to that. I recently did a doghouse shroud on a 70 Bus, and I found a used shroud with the flaps for $50, and used cooler with adapter for $20. I've used many used coolers without issue, but I did buy one for this project, and I think it was less than $75. I wasn't sure if I was going to use a Porsche 356 pulley, so I got a welded fan for $60, but I've picked up used og ones for $20. And I added a Venturi ring from Awesome Powdercoat for $50, which you wouldn't necessarily have to do. It's up to you, but I feel the og doghouse stuff is the easier, more practical, less expensive route. |
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i_luv_my_bus76
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Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:02 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| I guess it depends on what you were wanting to do with an external cooler? Any one I've ever installed that worked well was one of the Mesa style flat 96 plate ones with a thermostatically controlled cooling fan. It will provide enough cooling to replace the original cooler, but if you're trying to save money, the og doghouse stuff would probably be less expensive. I would imagine you would have at least a few hundred dollars in the cooler, fan, thermostat, fittings, and rubber hose. If you're wanting to do AN fittings, and braided hose, add another couple hundred on to that. I recently did a doghouse shroud on a 70 Bus, and I found a used shroud with the flaps for $50, and used cooler with adapter for $20. I've used many used coolers without issue, but I did buy one for this project, and I think it was less than $75. I wasn't sure if I was going to use a Porsche 356 pulley, so I got a welded fan for $60, but I've picked up used og ones for $20. And I added a Venturi ring from Awesome Powdercoat for $50, which you wouldn't necessarily have to do. It's up to you, but I feel the og doghouse stuff is the easier, more practical, less expensive route. |
Thank you for your post...
Isn't there more tin that is needed for the doghouse set up to work as designed? I priced it all out... everything new 240 I couldn't find everything used and 2hat I did find used knocked the over all price down to 175...the external cooler set I was looking at is 130 new and I've seen used ones as low as 35 bucks...
If they are as efficient then I think I might pull the trigger on a used external set up...I just need a few confirmations |
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gt1953
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 13848
Location: White Mountains Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:06 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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Doghouse cooler would be plenty of cooling. Obtain parts for the conversion. Less to go wrong with the factory set up.
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Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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volksworld
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Joined: November 26, 2011
Posts: 2529
Location: formerly NY currently NC
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:10 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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| doghouse...an external cooler only cools when there is air flowing through it...so it needs its own fan(and thermostat)...those 70's style coolers that people screwed to the back of the fan shroud are worthless and pre-heat the air thats trying to cool the heads and cylinders...and slip on fittings and hose clamps like to blow off ....as far as the doghouse cooler, they are almost impossable to properly flush out so i'll only re-use one that i know the history of the engine it came off of....if the motor spun a bearing or did anything to load the oil with debris i throw it out... just not worth the risk...(and the same goes for a used non-stock cooler....theres probably a good reason the po is getting rid of it....the combo you're building shouldnt need any additional cooling but as long as its apart drill and tap for full flow .... and just plug it....that way if you have more cash and want to add a filter or additional cooler later you're already set up for if.....and you're better off with a used fan shroud cause the aftermarket ones arent designed as well...the vanes inside to properly direct the air flow arent as extensive and they dont have thermostat flaps or the holes pre drilled to install them...so unless you have your heart set on a chrome pos that will be rusty in a couple months stick with stock...cant believe you cant find one in the classifieds here |
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i_luv_my_bus76
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Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:24 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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| volksworld wrote: |
| doghouse...an external cooler only cools when there is air flowing through it...so it needs its own fan(and thermostat)...those 70's style coolers that people screwed to the back of the fan shroud are worthless and pre-heat the air thats trying to cool the heads and cylinders...and slip on fittings and hose clamps like to blow off ....as far as the doghouse cooler, they are almost impossable to properly flush out so i'll only re-use one that i know the history of the engine it came off of....if the motor spun a bearing or did anything to load the oil with debris i throw it out... just not worth the risk...(and the same goes for a used non-stock cooler....theres probably a good reason the po is getting rid of it....the combo you're building shouldnt need any additional cooling but as long as its apart drill and tap for full flow .... and just plug it....that way if you have more cash and want to add a filter or additional cooler later you're already set up for if.....and you're better off with a used fan shroud cause the aftermarket ones arent designed as well...the vanes inside to properly direct the air flow arent as extensive and they dont have thermostat flaps or the holes pre drilled to install them...so unless you have your heart set on a chrome pos that will be rusty in a couple months stick with stock...cant believe you cant find one in the classifieds here |
I found a few but after shipping it comes to around the same price as a new aftermarket one...or the person posting it does not respond back when messaged |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31361
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:11 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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| volksworld wrote: |
| ...those 70's style coolers that people screwed to the back of the fan shroud are worthless and pre-heat the air thats trying to cool the heads and cylinders...and slip on fittings and hose clamps like to blow off .... |
I've used such external cooler - on the FRONT of the fan shroud by the way - since 1976 on my 1835cc DP engine in Arizona desert, with plenty of mid-day, mid-summer cross-desert high speed trips to California under its belt, and no issues. I had a tiny amount of oil seepage at the ends of the rubber hoses at 31 years of use, so replace those every 30 years to be safe. Oh yes: that VW also had dealer-installed DPD air conditioning, and I ran that too. I did use engine lid standoffs, as my VW lid was 1970 with only 2 groups of vents. Doghouse stuff was pretty expensive back in the 1970s !!!
Let me also say that the #3/#4 spark plug rubber boots would turn hard and brittle within 6 months with stock 1970 non-doghouse cooling system, and those lasted tons longer after I installed the external oil cooler instead. Plus I had an oil filter with that !
I'm not trying to SELL anyone on that type of cooler, just providing my own experience. Note that the engine also has the 92mm "thin" cylinders that folks often say will not work well !!!
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:30 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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The dog house system is very very good, Id go with that you get a good amount of forced air thru the cooler, it is cool air, and the heated air after going thru the cooler is discharged away from the motor bay intake. If you do wish to install an extra cooler, you need consider how it will get a supply of fresh cool air, and how to remove the heated air. Often the heated air is simply recirculated, making the cooler not all that cool
Consider a full flow filter, and to that you can always add on an extra cooler if need be to the full flow, but give the dog house a go first, it really is a great system. You may find you need nothing else for cooling. Stock tinware is often superior in fit, and for shrouds, include all the needed directional vanes that many aftermarket shrouds leave out
Bug On, Stay Cool!
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
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anthax
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Joined: October 21, 2016
Posts: 283
Location: Hälsingland, Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:35 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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I run 2007cc with factory doghouse setup.
Runs even cooler than the old worn 1600 it came from. (Tight squish helps too..) |
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Tom K.
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Posts: 1605
Location: Central Pennsylvania
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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agree that the old stock stuff is much better in so far as shrouds and tins go, but beware of used oil coolers. If the prior engine blew, chunks of metal can get wedged in the cooler, resisting cleaning attempts, only to break free while in use months later. Unless you know for sure the prior engine did not have chunks of metal in the oil, best bet is a new oil cooler. I am not aware of the new oil coolers being problematic as the aftermarket fan shrouds can be.
Bug On, Bug Cool!
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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i_luv_my_bus76
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Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:41 am Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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And the wider fan |
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bluebus86
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Tom K.
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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also foam tape on cooler and rubber seal on ductwork out front tin.
Refer to the Official VW Service Manual to find photos of all the bits, they all serve a purpose. Also pay attention to assembly details, fix gaps, leak points to get the most out of the cooling air.
Stay cool
Bug On!
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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bhartwell59
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Joined: December 28, 2014
Posts: 791
Location: dallas, tx
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| also foam tape on cooler and rubber seal on ductwork out front tin. |
Yep, did all this + adding the Hoover bit when I replaced the oil cooler seals this summer.
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Old n' slow
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Location: Western Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| volksworld wrote: |
| ...those 70's style coolers that people screwed to the back of the fan shroud are worthless and pre-heat the air thats trying to cool the heads and cylinders...and slip on fittings and hose clamps like to blow off .... |
I've used such external cooler - on the FRONT of the fan shroud by the way - since 1976 ............Doghouse stuff was pretty expensive back in the 1970s !!!
.......... Plus I had an oil filter with that !
I'm not trying to SELL anyone on that type of cooler, just providing my own experience. Note that the engine also has the 92mm "thin" cylinders that folks often say will not work well !!! |
Same here ...not saying it's an ideal set up but I had a 69 Westphalia with the same external tubing/fin cooler (and external oil filter) with about 100k and only a valve job done to it.....still ran like new, with excellent compression and used no oil when I sold it.
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All my daily drivers gone but not forgotten;
1964(sunroof)1967 & (2)1968 Beetles , 1968 Squareback , 1963 (23 window )Deluxe Sunroof Bus , 1969 Westphalia camper, 1974 Dasher , 1985 Vanagon , (2) 1981 Rabbit Diesels & a 1991 Jetta Diesel . |
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: External Oil Cooler or Doghouse Conversion |
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Of course the doghouse system does what the tube cooler ahead of the fan inlet attempts.
Both methods have Larger oil cooler(s) than non doghouse, Tube type is very inefficient, verses stock plate type.
doghouse method dumps oil heated air out, rather than attempt to cool engine with it, type over fan inlet dumps heat into engine cooling air flow.
Doghouse method does not restrict inlet of fan, and has larger volume fan (fatter fan width)
Type over the inlet blocks fan inlet of a smaller lower capacity fan
Doghouse method does not over heat number 3 head and cylinder, the type over the fan inlet does not address this on non doghouse systems
going to a dog house has many more positives over staying non dog house and adding a cooler over the fan inlet. You got more wind blowing with the bigger fan, the air being blown is cooler over the heads, and much more even cooling.
There is much more to the dog house than simply better oil cooling, it is a high performance well tuned cooling system. If that still dont work, you can always add a cooler to it, but it is so many miles ahead of the non doghouse, it be crazy not to put on the top of the todo list.
Doghouse is a win win win..... win for You, win for the Bug, win for the Motor!
Or should it be... wind wind wind.... wind for You, wind for the Bug, Wind for the Motor????
Bug On!
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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