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ScottDT1 Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2011 Posts: 5 Location: Olympic Peninsula
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:34 pm Post subject: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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I just received this email regarding GoWesty rotors used with steel wheels.
GOWESTY BIGGER BRAKES: PRODUCT SAFETY NOTICE
Dear GoWesty customer,
The purpose of this email is to explain, in detail, a problem we discovered related to big brakes and steel wheels fitted to Vanagons.
Background: We have sold thousands of big brake kits (Part#: BIGGER-BRAKES) and steel wheels for many years without any issues at all. A few months ago, we received reports from three different customers that their GoWesty Bigger Brake rotors broke into pieces right at the spot where their wheels contacted the brake rotor. These customers all had rotors from our most recent production batch. One customer reported a failure of a rotor that was not a GoWesty rotor; rather, it was a big brake rotor used by another supplier of big brakes for Vanagon.
Yesterday, we heard from a customer whose rotor from an earlier batch had failed.
All of these customers were using steel wheels (see below).
Response from GoWesty: Our response to the first breakages was to notify all GoWesty customers that purchased either our recent batch of GoWesty Bigger Brakes or GoWesty steel wheels, alerting them to the problem. Even though we did not know the specifics of the problem, we knew it was either the wheel or the brakes—or a combination of the two. We needed to do our due diligence and let people know right away.
Following this most recent rotor incident (from a different batch of rotors than previously reported incidents), we are taking no chances in extending this notification to all customers who have purchased our bigger brake kit.
Investigation: When investigating the first breakages, we concluded the problem is with the brake rotor when used with a steel wheel. What we found was that—because of the way any steel wheel presses on the rotor—it is possible for it to break the larger-than-original rotor, especially if the wheel is over-torqued. This is not a problem with the original OEM VW rotors because of the way they are designed to fit with the hub directly behind it—or in the case of 2WD, where the hub and rotor are integral. The potential for failure increases when a larger rotor is installed in place of the original rotor, over the existing hub (4WD) or new non-integral hub (2WD) as you can see in the diagram to the below:
When the first breakages were reported from the same batch of rotors manufactured for GoWesty, we believed that particular batch was slightly weaker than rotors we’d received previously. We believed that difference—when coupled with a steel wheel and possible over-torqueing of wheel fasteners—made for a perfect storm resulting in a small number of failures.
In light of this most recent incident, we learned that this issue is not limited to a single batch of rotors.
Solution: We just received a new batch of rotors. We have tested the rotors from this latest batch by installing one on a Vanagon with a steel wheel and a 5mm aluminum spacer. We intentionally over-torqued the wheel lugs to the point of destroying the wheel and the lug nuts. We did this both with and without an aluminum spacer, and the rotor did not fail. We performed the same exact test on a rotor from the previous batch and it did not fail with the aluminum spacer—but it did fail without an aluminum spacer. Given these results, we have determined a big brake rotor with an aluminum spacer is safe to use with a steel wheel.
Long-term solution: When our next batch of GoWesty Bigger Brake rotors are available online, they will have substantially more material in the critical area so they are absolutely fool-proof, no matter what wheel is used and no matter what torque is applied, without any aluminum spacer required.
What you need to do:
If you have original OEM VW-designed brakes: NOTHING—this issue does not apply to you at all.
If you have a big brake kit (GoWesty or any other) and alloy (not steel) wheels: NOTHING—this issue does not apply to you.
If you have a GoWesty bigger brake kit (purchased after 2013) and steel wheels (GoWesty or any other): Respond to this email, and GoWesty will send you new rotors with 5mm wheel spacers. When installed with the wheel spacers, these rotors will work with your steel wheels.
I hope this information adequately explains the situation. We are committed to keeping you and your Vanagon on the road for the long haul, and we apologize for any inconvenience this issue may have caused you.
Sincerely,
S. Lucas Valdes, PEME
President, GoWesty _________________ Scott
'91 2.2 Westy "Baba" |
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Pinetops Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2007 Posts: 2987
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: GOWESTY BIGGER BRAKES: PRODUCT SAFETY NOTICE |
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Ouch
I'm glad to see they are trying to make it right. _________________ "A rolling bus gathers no rust." |
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raoul mitgong Samba Member
Joined: July 05, 2009 Posts: 1338 Location: Denver, CO
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: GOWESTY BIGGER BRAKES: PRODUCT SAFETY NOTICE |
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Quote: |
If you have a big brake kit (GoWesty or any other) and alloy (not steel) wheels: NOTHING—this issue does not apply to you. |
I'd argue that this would apply in this situation too. Future owner might not know about the issue and put steel wheels on his van.
-d _________________ 84 Westy with a 2.1 (Groover)
86 Tintop Syncro (Crow)
86 Tintop Syncro to Westy project (Tom Servo)
91 Westy (Only the top 12 inches of this van (a burn victim)) |
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Syncronoid Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2012 Posts: 1111 Location: Stanford, CA and Bend, OR
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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Any chance this could happen with the Van Cafe Audi-based Big Brake kit? _________________ '90 Syncro Westy w/GW2.5L |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5390 Location: PNW
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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Syncronoid wrote: |
Any chance this could happen with the Van Cafe Audi-based Big Brake kit? |
The ID of the Audi rotor fits tightly up against the OD of the hub and the rotor is thicker at the mounting face. This is not the case with the GW rotor and hub. The ID of the GW hub is quite a bit smaller than the ID of the rotor. This allows a wheel that has a larger diameter mounting pad (like the GW steel wheels) to put pressure on the mounting face of the rotor out beyond the point where the hub supports it. In addition, the mounting face of the GW rotor is thinner than the Audi rotor.
Maybe there is a problem with the GW steel wheels and the Audi based brake kit (I don't know - just saying), but there is not a problem with Mercedes or VW/Audi steel wheels and the Audi based brake kit. Mercedes and VW/ Audi steel wheels have a mounting pad that is fairly small and makes contact with the rotor properly. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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termuehlen Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2012 Posts: 993 Location: Redwood City
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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Christopher Schimke wrote: |
Syncronoid wrote: |
Any chance this could happen with the Van Cafe Audi-based Big Brake kit? |
Maybe there is a problem with the GW steel wheels and the Audi based brake kit (I don't know - just saying), but there is not a problem with Mercedes or VW/Audi steel wheels and the Audi based brake kit. Mercedes and VW/ Audi steel wheels have a mounting pad that is fairly small and makes contact with the rotor properly. |
I agree Chris. From what I can see in the picture of the GW steel wheels, it looks like the wheel surface behind the bolt seat doesn't contact the surface of the hub at all. (Is that really the case?) I realize that the rotors are the part that is failing, but it really does look like the GW steel wheel could be problematic in other applications. A spacer behind those wheels may be a good idea in other applications. _________________ 1988 Westfalia automatic Subaru OBD1
1986 syncro tintop wbx |
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ScottDT1 Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2011 Posts: 5 Location: Olympic Peninsula
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: GOWESTY BIGGER BRAKES: PRODUCT SAFETY NOTICE |
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raoul mitgong wrote: |
Quote: |
If you have a big brake kit (GoWesty or any other) and alloy (not steel) wheels: NOTHING—this issue does not apply to you. |
I'd argue that this would apply in this situation too. Future owner might not know about the issue and put steel wheels on his van.
-d |
I agree. I wouldn't want to pass this problem on to a future owner. _________________ Scott
'91 2.2 Westy "Baba" |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5390 Location: PNW
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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termuehlen wrote: |
Christopher Schimke wrote: |
Syncronoid wrote: |
Any chance this could happen with the Van Cafe Audi-based Big Brake kit? |
Maybe there is a problem with the GW steel wheels and the Audi based brake kit (I don't know - just saying), but there is not a problem with Mercedes or VW/Audi steel wheels and the Audi based brake kit. Mercedes and VW/ Audi steel wheels have a mounting pad that is fairly small and makes contact with the rotor properly. |
I agree Chris. From what I can see in the picture of the GW steel wheels, it looks like the wheel surface behind the bolt seat doesn't contact the surface of the hub at all. (Is that really the case?) |
Yes, the mounting surface of their steel wheel is putting pressure on the rotor in an area that is completely unsupported by the hub. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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mackaymanx Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006 Posts: 479 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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Sounds to me like the spacer is a bandaid solution, the real problem is that the hub is too small and need to be redesigned to support the rotor properly. You can only tell if the spacer is an adequate solution once it has been in service and subjected to the cyclic loading it would endure on a road going vehicle. Over tightening a wheel in a workshop is no substitute for real life conditions. _________________ [url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate2-18600.png]Click to view image[/URL] |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6528 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: GOWESTY BIGGER BRAKES: PRODUCT SAFETY NOTICE |
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raoul mitgong wrote: |
Quote: |
If you have a big brake kit (GoWesty or any other) and alloy (not steel) wheels: NOTHING—this issue does not apply to you. |
I'd argue that this would apply in this situation too. Future owner might not know about the issue and put steel wheels on his van.
-d |
Raoul, you bring up a haunting thought and I have no idea what the answer is.
I think Lucas handled it as best as it could have been. I hope they can get through this as the ramifications are endless and very threatening to GW.
Best of Luck to All. _________________ ‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6528 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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Syncronoid wrote: |
Any chance this could happen... |
I think I would ask that of that vendor, fear whether warranted or not can kill any business. Putting it out there like this, here, can be irretrievably damaging…
Edit: looks like Christopher's answer helps to negate said fear, but… _________________ ‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
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ScottDT1 Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2011 Posts: 5 Location: Olympic Peninsula
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: GOWESTY BIGGER BRAKES: PRODUCT SAFETY NOTICE |
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Pinetops wrote: |
Ouch
I'm glad to see they are trying to make it right. |
Yes, GW got back to me within hours to let me know the new rotors were on the way. _________________ Scott
'91 2.2 Westy "Baba" |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7462 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: GOWESTY BIGGER BRAKES: PRODUCT SAFETY NOTICE |
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raoul mitgong wrote: |
Quote: |
If you have a big brake kit (GoWesty or any other) and alloy (not steel) wheels: NOTHING—this issue does not apply to you. |
I'd argue that this would apply in this situation too. Future owner might not know about the issue and put steel wheels on his van.
-d |
It’s ridiculous to say that this is NOT a problem for those with alloy rims. I’ve got four alloy rims and a steel spare. Am I supposed to now replace the spare because of GWs defective product? I also guess that sometime in the future someone might want to replace the ugly 16” alloys with steel rims. How are they supposed to know that would be a safety issue?
Thanks for the heads-up! _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
Last edited by jimf909 on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mellow Yellow 74 Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014 Posts: 1615 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: GOWESTY BIGGER BRAKES: PRODUCT SAFETY NOTICE |
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jimf909 wrote: |
raoul mitgong wrote: |
Quote: |
If you have a big brake kit (GoWesty or any other) and alloy (not steel) wheels: NOTHING—this issue does not apply to you. |
I'd argue that this would apply in this situation too. Future owner might not know about the issue and put steel wheels on his van.
-d |
It’s ridiculous to say that this is NOT a problem for those with alloy rims. I’ve got four allow rims and a steel spare. Am I supposed to now replace the spare because of GWs defective product? I also guess that sometime in the future someone might want to replace the ugly 16” alloys with steel rims. They’re supposed to know that would be a problem and install new brakes also? |
Just tell them you have steel wheels and ask for the new rotors _________________ 1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7462 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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^^^ Done.
It’s still not awesome for GW to be recommending a path that leaves possibly thousands of alloy-only rotors out there. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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hdenter Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008 Posts: 2753 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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IMHO, the only correct solution is to change the hub out for a larger one. The spacer trick is just that, a trick. Selling aftermarket brakes is risky to begin with, leaving hubs out there that can knowingly fail if a minor mistake(or omission) happens during assembly is foolhardy.
Hans _________________ '79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender |
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Team WorldTour Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 2426 Location: Der Vaterland
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Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:40 am Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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It surprises me that you talk about van ownership as a temporary thing.
Yes, I too have sold vans before, but not because I wanted to.
In my minds eye, I see this same attitude in pet ownership. Families on military bases that abandon a pet because of a future perceived hardship.
Do people really own vans with the intent to sell them off at some future date?
Personally, I know I don't need to tell anybody anything, because there won't be anybody else. My van is mine. If there is a problem, it's my problem.
I have the GW brakes. Somehow, I doubt they will be sending me new rotors to Germany.
I guess I'm going to have to fix the problem myself.
But hey, good job Lucas, on making people aware of this, and trying to make it right. That is the important part. _________________ 1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
Click to view image
H6 Subaru Engine Swap Thread
WV2ZZZ25ZFH094138(x)/ WV2YB0257LH057308(x)/ WV2ZZZ25ZLG113270/
"Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket?" -Nicodemus Jordan
When All Else Fails: Lather, Rinse, Repeat! |
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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Team WorldTour wrote: |
It surprises me that you talk about van ownership as a temporary thing.
Yes, I too have sold vans before, but not because I wanted to.
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People get sick, their families get sick, they die. Van gets sold. New owner has no idea that their brakes were 'designed' by a numbskull...
That guy should be spanked soundly IMHO. _________________ '84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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Team WorldTour wrote: |
It surprises me that you talk about van ownership as a temporary thing. |
Everything is temporary. Your van might outlast you. |
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tencentlife Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006 Posts: 10075 Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Gowesty Bigger Brakes: Product Safety Notice |
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Quote: |
I have the GW brakes. Somehow, I doubt they will be sending me new rotors to Germany. |
They damn well better, this is a major safety defect. Due diligence wasn't done at the design phase and now they have to make it up. Good on them for being up-front about their discovery, although from a legal standpoint they would put the company in deeper jeopardy if they attempted to conceal knowledge of the flaw. And trying to dodge a portion of the upgrades because of wheel choice is inoperable, they need to replace every single rotor they sold, or upgrade every undersized hub, so no one is driving with a known potential rotor failure. That's what a company takes on when they enter the arena of modifying running gear, you can't make customers take chances with the things that suspend, steer, and stop their vehicle. _________________ Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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