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Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap)
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skylarkman2
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

Greetings from a new member.
You do excellent documentation.
I recently acquired a 78 t2 - full hippie bus - trashed VW motor.
Included with the bus are an ej22 and ej25 and several boxes of parts.
Also included was an adapter plate.
I have been restoring cars for 50 years, and this is my first VW and Subaru as well.
I look forward to following your progress.
I am in Texas also, near Dallas.
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

Thanks Skylarkman!

We'll I'm continuing to make some progress. Baby arrived on Tuesday, but I've been able to sneak out here and there during quite/nap times Laughing

First up was getting the old T4 pulled. I'll be honest, I was asking myself the whole time why I was pulling a perfectly good engine Shocked Oh well, on to bigger and better things!

All in all a pretty standard engine pull. I left the transmission in. Had it out and on the floor in 15-20 minutes or so.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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The next afternoon I was ready to try and shoehorn in the EJ25. I had to go buy myself an engine hoist for the garage to get things moving. I've really needed one for a long while now, as I'm routinely moving engines/stuff around and up/down off stands. Up until now I've always managed with just an extra set of hands. Unfortunately all my cool neighbors have now moved away, so I had to plink down on a hoist today. Should help save my back anyways Embarassed

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Once it was off the engine stand, I installed the adapter plate and flywheel. Also installed a diken disk and STG I pressure plate. I stuck with a 200mm flywheel setup with the adapter, so there are a lot of clutch options out there. Unfortunately I managed to not get ANY photos at all. Too busy trying to just get it done. You'll have to use your imagination Laughing

The new hoist also came in handy during install. I rolled the engine under the Bus just using an engine dolly I use on my air-cooled motors. But to lift and install, I passed the chain down through the engine hatch, and lifted it right up with the hoist. Worked out pretty well. The wifey caught me in the act (safety flip-flops...engaged! lol)

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After doing a bit of wrestling with it to get it slid up against the trans, I found out I got the WRONG stud kit for the adapter plate. There are two stud lengths from KEP, one for the 002/Bug trans, and a longer set for the 091 trans. Naturally they boxed the wrong one. I did manage to find a couple of bolts to temporarily mount it in, so at least this will let me move on with figuring out some of the other bits and pieces while I wait for the correct studs to show up. No biggie...

Overall the engine looks quite a bit smaller once it gets in the engine bay.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A close up shot. Things should fill out quite a bit once I get everything else installed, like the air filter/MAF, coolant lines, etc, etc...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And another cool angle I got... Too bad its not going to stay this clean Crying or Very sad

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This oil pan is a shorted unit from Outfront Motorsports, but its clearly still the lowest point on the Bus. I still have pretty good (or at least manageable) clearance, but I wish this would tuck up more. That said, the exhaust is going to likely hang down equally as low, so I don't know how much more gains there could be. Also, my T1 motors have always hung down far worse, and I've managed to not kill a sump yet. That said, to me this is the biggest down side to the Subi swaps compared to AC motors. Shouldn't really be any big deal for my street cruiser though..

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The next biggest issue I'm going to have to deal with is TB to firewall clearance. I knew this was going to be tight, but this is honestly tighter than expected. I was hoping that I could use one of the cobra head style bends/connectors here, but I don't think its going to fit without modification of the TB or firewall. Need to look into this further. I also had to knock off the outlet pipe for the heater system from the water cross over pipe. It hits the lower part of the firewall as is. It can be easily tweaked to clear, but again something I haven't seen folks post about before.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


All for now... Now all that is left is the harder/time consuming stuff.. Laughing
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Clatter wrote:
The only cheap part of an aircooled VW sits behind the wheel..
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

From a former Big XII foe (K-State) glad to see this is coming together, and congrats on Baby coming! You should probably set Baby in the Bus and take a pic.

I saw earlier today that Rocky Mountain Westy has started producing a carrier bar for mounting Subies into later Bay busses!

I do like the TDI motor in my '78 but whenever the time comes for the '73, I may have to learn a little more about Subaru motors.

Sorry for any typos... I decided to take the dog camping in the Bus tonight.. And I brought a little whiskey with me...
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

vwwestyman wrote:
From a former Big XII foe (K-State) glad to see this is coming together, and congrats on Baby coming! You should probably set Baby in the Bus and take a pic.

I saw earlier today that Rocky Mountain Westy has started producing a carrier bar for mounting Subies into later Bay busses!

I do like the TDI motor in my '78 but whenever the time comes for the '73, I may have to learn a little more about Subaru motors.

Sorry for any typos... I decided to take the dog camping in the Bus tonight.. And I brought a little whiskey with me...


Thanks vwwestyman! I'm sure I'll have a family pic of everyone enjoying the Bus soon!

I did see the RMW engine bar too... I have been planning on making my own, but was looking at the RMW bar and the Busaru bar last night. The RMW bar is a little spendy, but the Busaru bar is priced very well. Regardless, I need to get the exhaust manifold bolted up and see how that is going to fit with everything. I'm going to be using an reversed STI exhaust manifold, so I need to see how that is going to fit around everything in relation to the engine mounts. I did get my muffler picked out already. Should be very nice and quiet, and look like a stock T4 muffler running across the back. Ultra stealth mode!
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The only cheap part of an aircooled VW sits behind the wheel..
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

build your engine bar first, then build your pipes/exhaust around it.

even with my super tight throttle body set up, I have to drop and box the firewall. it's fucking tight no matter which way you slice it.

to date, I think my t body arrangement is the cleanest yet....remember you have to tie in all of the breather hoses to the intake pipe. that is almost impossible to do without making something steel/aluminum so you can put the proper barbs in them
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
build your engine bar first, then build your pipes/exhaust around it.

even with my super tight throttle body set up, I have to drop and box the firewall. it's fucking tight no matter which way you slice it.

to date, I think my t body arrangement is the cleanest yet....remember you have to tie in all of the breather hoses to the intake pipe. that is almost impossible to do without making something steel/aluminum so you can put the proper barbs in them


Good comments on the engine bar. I believe my exhaust manifold will clear the typical engine bar arrangement fine, but needed to get the engine in, and the mounts and exhaust bolted up to see how they all fit together.

I do remember seeing some pics of one of the firewalls you boxed (maybe dumpy bus?). In the end I may have to end up going that route as well. We'll see... Gonna fiddle around with it more and see what other options I might come up with. I could flip the intake around, but then I loose the factory AC compressor mounting location, which I hope to utilize someday.

In regards to the intake pipe, yea there was always going to be a pipe there no matter what. This allows various spots that the breather nipples could tie in, and lets you locate the airfilter/maf in a good spot in the engine bay. I was just hoping a cobra head connector at the TB would squeeze past the firewall, as it allows the actual pipe portion to have a sort of a negative offset centerline compared to the TB opening for room. Something like this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


No such luck though.. as its even tighter than I was expecting. I'll keep fiddling.
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The only cheap part of an aircooled VW sits behind the wheel..
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skylarkman2
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

Glad to hear that the baby arrived okay.
Boy or girl?
I moved to the next step in my conversion Saturday.
I picked up a wrecked 03 Forester.
Started the dismantle today.
I am sure that I will be referring to this thread a lot.
Dave-Ennis, TX
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

skylarkman2 wrote:
Glad to hear that the baby arrived okay.
Boy or girl?
I moved to the next step in my conversion Saturday.
I picked up a wrecked 03 Forester.
Started the dismantle today.
I am sure that I will be referring to this thread a lot.
Dave-Ennis, TX


Right on Dave! I am by no means an expert, but hopefully my posts can help some. Looks up Skills posts here too. He has done several top notch conversions and has a lot of good info posted.
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Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006

67 Beetle (1500sp, 1776dp, 1915NA, 1915T fuel injected, 2276NA, 2276T fuel injected, 2084NA, T4 conversion coming soon!)

74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut

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The only cheap part of an aircooled VW sits behind the wheel..
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

Just an update on the intake/firewall clearance issues...

After looking into just about every option there is, I've decided (at least for now) to just flip the entire intake around. This appears to be the best option for my goals for the Bus. The only real downside is that I loose the factory AC compressor mounting location, which is really only a theoretical issue at this point (I'd love AC someday, but honestly, the likelihood of that happening is pretty slim).

Since the clearance is so tight between the throttle body and fire wall (especially on late bays), you really only have three options:

1) Throttle body reverser

2) Modify the firewall to re-gain a bit of space from the gas tank cavity

3) Flip the entire intake, and put the alternator where the AC compressor was

Starting from the top, I personally just don't like any of the throttle body (TB) reversers, as aesthetically they kill it for me. Also, my 2.5 TB has a built in idle air control (IAC) valve, and moving the TB away from the intake with a reverser or other TB relocation mod causes issues with its plumbing. Some folks say you can just modify the TB internally to let the IAC dump right after the throttle plate, but the factory IAC routes air into a separate chamber in the intake casting before it actually opens up into the plenum, so I'm concerned that dinking with that could mess up the factory ECUs idle control dynamics. So that killed that.

Next up was looking at several different ways to modify the firewall to get more clearance for intake plumbing. Ultimately this just went a little further than I wanted to in regards to body mods for the Subaru swap. Sure the firewall is an easily replaceable part, but my preference was to not touch any of the body if I didn't have too. In my opinion, Skills has done a great job with his swaps with a drop and box of the firewall, and then his creative white-out TB/intake mods to make all the factory parts fit. Probably some of the cleanest I've seen to keep the intake in the normal orientation. I just didn't want to go down that path right now.

So this left me with flipping the intake. Aside from the previously mentioned elimination of the factory AC compressor mount, there is very few other issues to this. The alternator is pretty easily relocated to where the AC compressor used to reside, and there are a few off the shelf solutions to accomplish the relocation (although I'm using/modifying the original subi parts for this). The intake itself just essentially bolts right on 180* backwards, leaving the TB pointing right out in the open easy to get to. As a bonus, this also put the throttle linkage in a nice orientation to tie back into the Bus as well. There will need to be some adjustment of wiring on the engine harness since everything attached to the intake has flopped around with it, but that isn't much more work than what I already expect to do with the engine harness to get it cleaned up before final install (note, this varies on some models, as depending on which subi you have, some sensors are remote mounted, while other models have stuff mounted directly to the intake). Also aesthetically for me, this looks much better than the TB reversers (my opinion anyways).

Here is a pic showing the current layout with the intake reversed

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is more of a close-up showing the new alternator mounting location. I've got a lot more cleanup to do on the mounts still, and I need to get an alternator adjuster/belt tensioner added, but I've got a plan in my head on how to tackle this already. I also tweaked the dip stick tube for some added clearance here too. Although it may not be everyone's cup of tea, I think in the end it will be a good/clean solution given my constraints.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Moving on!
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74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

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The only cheap part of an aircooled VW sits behind the wheel..
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

Nice!

Love it..

I have a full camper (and only two kids),
But it happens all the time that we wish we could bring more along.

At first, it was good camping with the poptop and all,
But now,
We make them sleep in a tent! Twisted Evil

So,
Your choice of a transporter was spot-on!


Popcorn Popcorn
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Nice!

Love it..

I have a full camper (and only two kids),
But it happens all the time that we wish we could bring more along.

At first, it was good camping with the poptop and all,
But now,
We make them sleep in a tent! Twisted Evil

So,
Your choice of a transporter was spot-on!


Popcorn Popcorn


Yea for our family the transporter was the way to go.

I miss my old 68 camper for sure, but we get more use as a family out of the transporter. With the newest addition we now have 4 kiddos. Even before with just 3, our camper was TIGHT and not real comfortable to cruise around in (which has always been our primary usage of the Bus).

I figure if we want to go camping now we can just pack tents. That was the plan as the kids got bigger anyways. I was also thinking with the new power of the EJ25, I can make a hitch and easily tow around a small tent trailer in the future too. I call that having your cake and eating it too Laughing
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Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006

67 Beetle (1500sp, 1776dp, 1915NA, 1915T fuel injected, 2276NA, 2276T fuel injected, 2084NA, T4 conversion coming soon!)

74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut

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The only cheap part of an aircooled VW sits behind the wheel..
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

Vee Dub Nut wrote:
we now have 4 kiddos
dude, you guys need to get a TV. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

Awesome work! Going to enjoy following the progress on this Popcorn
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

Vee Dub Nut wrote:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


From this shot I would have thought you would have more than enough space to do a 90 bend. Is it deceiving because the engine is hanging low at the moment?
Mine for reference
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

richparker wrote:
Vee Dub Nut wrote:
we now have 4 kiddos
dude, you guys need to get a TV. Laughing


LOL Yup, we have a full house. This one was the last one though. Wink
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Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006

67 Beetle (1500sp, 1776dp, 1915NA, 1915T fuel injected, 2276NA, 2276T fuel injected, 2084NA, T4 conversion coming soon!)

74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut

Clatter wrote:
The only cheap part of an aircooled VW sits behind the wheel..
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

riverside66 wrote:
Awesome work! Going to enjoy following the progress on this Popcorn


Thanks for the compliment! Hope that the thread is entertaining and helpful. I'm having a blast. This has been my "dream" Bus, and its been fun getting to build it up.
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Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006

67 Beetle (1500sp, 1776dp, 1915NA, 1915T fuel injected, 2276NA, 2276T fuel injected, 2084NA, T4 conversion coming soon!)

74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut

Clatter wrote:
The only cheap part of an aircooled VW sits behind the wheel..
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

captincanuck wrote:
Vee Dub Nut wrote:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


From this shot I would have thought you would have more than enough space to do a 90 bend. Is it deceiving because the engine is hanging low at the moment?
Mine for reference
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So yea, its a deceiving photo. Your Bus having the Subaru trans pushes the engine further back in the engine bay than when using a KEP adaptor to the VW trans. From my understanding, early bays have a little more room, but you basically have zilch in a late bay when keeping the VW trans. Here are two better photos that show you would have to cut into the firewall and recapture space from the fuel tank cavity. Even then, you can't really gain too much without hitting the tank, so its TIGHT regardless. Skills solution is certainly the best compromise to get it all to fit for sure. I've got a pretty good idea of what he is doing from the few pics he has posted, but am not up on all the exact parts he's using. Again, I really would prefer not to go that route.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And probably a better angle here

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There is literally only about 1/4" between the bottom edge of the TB to the foam seal lip of the firewall.
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Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006

67 Beetle (1500sp, 1776dp, 1915NA, 1915T fuel injected, 2276NA, 2276T fuel injected, 2084NA, T4 conversion coming soon!)

74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut

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The only cheap part of an aircooled VW sits behind the wheel..
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

Those pics are making me want to do a Subaru conversion, just so I can figure out how to work around those problems.

Maybe one day some time in the future that is what'll go in the '73.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

richparker wrote:
Vee Dub Nut wrote:
we now have 4 kiddos
dude, you guys need to get a TV. Laughing


That's priceless right there.. Very Happy
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Vee Dub Nut
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Joined: April 25, 2004
Posts: 1050
Location: NW Georgia
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 74 Bay Transporter (& Subaru EJ25 Swap) Reply with quote

Well I fiddled around with the reversed intake idea more today, but the more I messed with it and the alternator, the less I liked it as a solution. I just felt like I was starting to make too many compromises with the changes needed to flip the intake around, and the complete loss of potentially running AC in the future kept coming back up in my mind.

This sort of backed me back up to my other previous choices in regards to intake plumbing (firewall modifications or TB reversal), and since I'm still not wanting to get into the firewall, a TB reverser (although unattractive) was starting to look like the best compromise.

After doing more research on the reversers and IAC, it appears that folks have been able to modify the TB IAC path without issue. I chatted with one individual directly who had done two TB's this way, and didn't report any issues. With that little bit of reassurance, I figured I'd give it a shot. Essentially what you have to do is cut back part of the dividing wall between the backside of the throttle plate and the IAC port. There are later model Subaru TB's that are built this way from the factory. Hopefully not having the IAC flow get to the plenum through the normal passage doesn't cause any control problems with the factory ECU. We shall see. I considered making my own reverser, but decided to order a pre-fab'd one from Marshall Motorsports. Of all the reversers I've seen made up, I liked theirs the best. Nice tight radius on the tubing, and thick CNC machined flanges. Hopefully this will give me the best compromise of keeping the engine as stock as possible, and not having to cut anything (and not look too dumb Laughing )

FWIW, I ran across this photo on FB today of an early bay with a TB reverser done up by TSR in the UK. I think this one looks pretty clean. If I can keep mine looking that tidy, I'll be happy with it. (NOTE: not my photo)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In the end, this issue, like a lot of others, are just one of many things that have to be sorted out on these swaps. There really is no single best way to do things. All of the choices that are made end up being a balance of compromises, and everyones priorities are different, so my ideal solution is likely different than others.

Anyways.. enough ranting.. I'll post up another photo once I get my hands on the reverser. I'll also keep everyone posted on how it works out fitment wise, and if and IAC issues come back to bite me.

On to other problems, engine hanger time!
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74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut

Clatter wrote:
The only cheap part of an aircooled VW sits behind the wheel..
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