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bug1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2015
Posts: 222
Location: Philippines
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 Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:10 am Post subject: The engine |
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I always refer to the bugs engine as a boxer engine, some guys call it a flat four.
But i just read an article about the differences of a boxer and a flat engine, which should be called a 180 degree V engine.
quote: "the boxer mill employs one crankpin per cylinder, while the flat (horizontal V) engine uses one crankpin per two horizontally opposed cylinders."
so where does the vw engine fit exactly here? (getting off topic) how bout a subaru engine? they both have different firing orders. and whats their difference? (flat and boxer)
I drove my friends subie today, the vibration at idle was immense (although i believe he has polyuwhatever mounts) compared to my bugs idle which is smooth while virtually not having any form of sophisticated mounts. although a slight wobbly feeling though from time to time.
It might not sound like one but the vw engine is quite a smooth engine compared to the subie that makes my butt numb after a few mins... |
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busman78
Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2004
Posts: 4522
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:49 am Post subject: Re: The engine |
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Boxer Engine defined direct from the web:
"A flat engine is an internal combustion engine with horizontally-opposed cylinders. Typically, the layout has cylinders arranged in two banks on either side of a single crankshaft and is otherwise known as the boxer, or horizontally-opposed engine.
and a Horizontally Opposed Engine
"A flat engine is an internal combustion engine with horizontally-opposed cylinders. Typically, the layout has cylinders arranged in two banks on either side of a single crankshaft and is otherwise known as the boxer, or horizontally-opposed engine." |
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kamesama980
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2014
Posts: 323
Location: Columbus, IN
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:35 am Post subject: Re: The engine |
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It's hard to wrap your head around at first. BMW bikes (2 cylinders), VW (4) and subie (4 and 6) are all boxer engines. That means that each pair of cylinders moves in opposite directions cancelling out the inertia of the piston travel with the opposite piston.
Flat engines, by having a common crankpin, move pairs of cylinders together in the same direction so with low cylinder counts would shake like a mofo. you see them occasionally in ferraris and lambos and the like in 8 or 12 cylinder arrangements. Vibrationally, the 12 is basically 2 I6s.
Hold up your arms at your shoulders, then push both out, they cancel out. that's a boxer. Now hold one arm extended to the side, and one at your shoulder. now alternate, feel your torso get pushed side to side. that's a "flat".
_________________
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"You don't get to blame me for how I fix what you break"
1970 VW Beetle
1994 Pontiac Firebird
2001 BMW R1200C
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Mid Engine Bug
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2017
Posts: 178
Location: CA
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glutamodo 
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26315
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: The engine |
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I would never call a horizontally opposed engine any kind of "V". Boxer, yes. Flat, yes.
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IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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busman78
Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2004
Posts: 4522
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| So where does that leave the lowly "pancake engine"? |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| busman78 wrote: |
| So where does that leave the lowly "pancake engine"? |
With VW, Porsche, Continental, BMW, Pratt & Whitney, Curtis Wright, Lycoming, Mitsubishi, Subaru, and others. They all have made them, Google "Pancake engine" and see for yourself. |
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iowegian
Samba Curmudgeon
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 9829
Location: Somewhere between Dubuque and Keokuk
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: The engine |
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I'm still puzzled by the talk of the "cylinders moving in opposite directions", etc.
I always thought the cylinders stayed put and the pistons did the moving.  |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| iowegian wrote: |
I'm still puzzled by the talk of the "cylinders moving in opposite directions", etc.
I always thought the cylinders stayed put and the pistons did the moving. |
Not always, not old WW1 radial fighters. See link below;
Rough Flight in Fokker Triplane.mpg - YouTube
▶ 5:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aaf2WnHG_A |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| Helfen wrote: |
| iowegian wrote: |
I'm still puzzled by the talk of the "cylinders moving in opposite directions", etc.
I always thought the cylinders stayed put and the pistons did the moving. |
Not always, not old WW1 radial fighters. See link below;
Rough Flight in Fokker Triplane.mpg - YouTube
▶ 5:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aaf2WnHG_A |
No....not "radial"....ROTARY. Totally different concept.
In a radial....its called "radial" because the cylinders "RADIATE" outward in a circle. The cylinders stay still and the crank rotates. About 90% of ww1 aircraft and about half of ww2 were "radial" engines.
What you are thinking of is "ROTARY" engines....and I do not mean Mazda style.
In the the rotary aircraft engine ....the crank is bolted to basically the firewall....and is fixed....and the block, cylinders and heads spin around it.
Ray |
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bug1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2015
Posts: 222
Location: Philippines
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:48 am Post subject: Re: The engine |
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thanks for you replies, perhaps the best way to describe it would be to just say the vw engine...
but im just really curious why the subaru vibrates much more than the bug, considering that the bug virtually has no sort of sophisticated mounting... |
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slave1pilot
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2010
Posts: 943
Location: Tehachapi CA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| bug1200 wrote: |
thanks for you replies, perhaps the best way to describe it would be to just say the vw engine...
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wait, I thought it was a motor...
_________________
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Currently:
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Previously:
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1968 Beetle
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| iowegian wrote: |
I'm still puzzled by the talk of the "cylinders moving in opposite directions", etc.
I always thought the cylinders stayed put and the pistons did the moving. |
Not always, not old WW1 radial fighters. See link below;
Rough Flight in Fokker Triplane.mpg - YouTube
▶ 5:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aaf2WnHG_A |
No....not "radial"....ROTARY. Totally different concept.
In a radial....its called "radial" because the cylinders "RADIATE" outward in a circle. The cylinders stay still and the crank rotates. About 90% of ww1 aircraft and about half of ww2 were "radial" engines.
What you are thinking of is "ROTARY" engines....and I do not mean Mazda style.
In the the rotary aircraft engine ....the crank is bolted to basically the firewall....and is fixed....and the block, cylinders and heads spin around it.
Ray |
The rotary engine is often called the stationary radial. |
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chickengeorge
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2004
Posts: 5634
Location: Spokompton Warshington
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| bug1200 wrote: |
I always refer to the bugs engine as a boxer engine, some guys call it a flat four.
But i just read an article about the differences of a boxer and a flat engine, which should be called a 180 degree V engine.
quote: "the boxer mill employs one crankpin per cylinder, while the flat (horizontal V) engine uses one crankpin per two horizontally opposed cylinders."
so where does the vw engine fit exactly here? (getting off topic) how bout a subaru engine? they both have different firing orders. and whats their difference? (flat and boxer)
I drove my friends subie today, the vibration at idle was immense (although i believe he has polyuwhatever mounts) compared to my bugs idle which is smooth while virtually not having any form of sophisticated mounts. although a slight wobbly feeling though from time to time.
It might not sound like one but the vw engine is quite a smooth engine compared to the subie that makes my butt numb after a few mins... |
I like to refer to either one as a boat anchor. |
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iowegian
Samba Curmudgeon
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 9829
Location: Somewhere between Dubuque and Keokuk
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| Helfen wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| iowegian wrote: |
I'm still puzzled by the talk of the "cylinders moving in opposite directions", etc.
I always thought the cylinders stayed put and the pistons did the moving. |
Not always, not old WW1 radial fighters. See link below;
Rough Flight in Fokker Triplane.mpg - YouTube
▶ 5:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aaf2WnHG_A |
No....not "radial"....ROTARY. Totally different concept.
In a radial....its called "radial" because the cylinders "RADIATE" outward in a circle. The cylinders stay still and the crank rotates. About 90% of ww1 aircraft and about half of ww2 were "radial" engines.
What you are thinking of is "ROTARY" engines....and I do not mean Mazda style.
In the the rotary aircraft engine ....the crank is bolted to basically the firewall....and is fixed....and the block, cylinders and heads spin around it.
Ray |
The rotary engine is often called the stationary radial. |
Whadda ya got if'n the propeller remains horizontal and the aeroplane fuselage rotates --------then wot? |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| iowegian wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| iowegian wrote: |
I'm still puzzled by the talk of the "cylinders moving in opposite directions", etc.
I always thought the cylinders stayed put and the pistons did the moving. |
Not always, not old WW1 radial fighters. See link below;
Rough Flight in Fokker Triplane.mpg - YouTube
▶ 5:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aaf2WnHG_A |
No....not "radial"....ROTARY. Totally different concept.
In a radial....its called "radial" because the cylinders "RADIATE" outward in a circle. The cylinders stay still and the crank rotates. About 90% of ww1 aircraft and about half of ww2 were "radial" engines.
What you are thinking of is "ROTARY" engines....and I do not mean Mazda style.
In the the rotary aircraft engine ....the crank is bolted to basically the firewall....and is fixed....and the block, cylinders and heads spin around it.
Ray |
The rotary engine is often called the stationary radial. |
Whadda ya got if'n the propeller remains horizontal and the aeroplane fuselage rotates --------then wot? |
Torque steer. |
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bug1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2015
Posts: 222
Location: Philippines
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:45 am Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| slave1pilot wrote: |
| bug1200 wrote: |
thanks for you replies, perhaps the best way to describe it would be to just say the vw engine...
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wait, I thought it was a motor...
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lol, haha. now that you think about it the words "motor" and "engine" are both interchangeable and can be used to describe "the thing that makes your car vroom vroom! and makes it move" so i dont think flat or boxer would really matter now...  |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:40 am Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| bug1200 wrote: |
| slave1pilot wrote: |
| bug1200 wrote: |
thanks for you replies, perhaps the best way to describe it would be to just say the vw engine...
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wait, I thought it was a motor...
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lol, haha. now that you think about it the words "motor" and "engine" are both interchangeable and can be used to describe "the thing that makes your car vroom vroom! and makes it move" so i dont think flat or boxer would really matter now... |
Never heard a steam engine being called a steam motor. |
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16757
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:58 am Post subject: Re: The engine |
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| busman78 wrote: |
| So where does that leave the lowly "pancake engine"? |
Pancake simply refers to peripheral configuration (i.e. carbs, cooling, etc). Engine block is essentially the same.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:10 am Post subject: Re: The engine |
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Toyota had a van called Previa in 84 and it had a water cooled I4 engine laying over on it's side positioned in the middle of the van under the passenger/ cargo floor pancake style.
https://www.toyoland.com/photos/1987/van.jpg |
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